RE: Evolution/Creation debate (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


GotSteel -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 1:16:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
But no living examples in nature. Also there would be no lineage because only the females were found to be fertile. So, a freak. Not a new species.


A male Great Dane can't realistically mate with a Chihuahua does that make them separate species?

[image]local://upfiles/566126/660BDA86CD914025897595026547A486.jpg[/image]




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 1:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

The act of elongating one's skull is something that humans have done in the past, just because they appear to not look human does not make them non human.

I'm aware of that, but head binding and cradle boarding do not change the volume of the cranial vault, they only change its shape, and they fail to explain the lack of a sagittal suture.

References?




Tkman117 -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 1:47:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

What evidence is there that they aren't homo sapiens? I would like to see that evidence, or if you have already posted it, could you please reference the post #?

The major differences are that these people had a larger cranial vault, i.e., a bigger brain, and their skulls lack the characteristic sagittal suture, exhibiting instead only a single parietal plate (last image).

K.


Did a bit of research and found this:
http://hiddenincatours.com/elongated-skulls-of-paracas-a-people-and-their-world/

quote:


What you are capable of doing via this technique is to change the shape of the skull, but not the actual volume; you can alter the shape, but not the size. However, Tello found several skulls, at least 90 at the site called Cerro Colorado adjacent to the main graveyard in Paracas, which had cranial volume larger, and in some cases 2.5 times larger than a conventional modern human skull. How is this possible? As I have said, deformation can alter shape, but not the volume of bone material, and certainly not twice as much.

It is therefore obvious that we are dealing with 2 different phenomena; elongation through binding, and elongation via genetics. The Paracas skulls are the largest found in the world, but from what root race stock would they have originated? To suggest that the natural elongation was the result of hydrocephaly or some other clinical condition is ridiculous, when one takes into account that again, at least 90 of them were found by Tello, and no one knows how many are still under the earth, in private collections, or gathering dust in museum warehouses in Peru, and beyond. Hydrocephaly would tend to make the skull expand evenly, making them more round than elongated.





Tkman117 -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 1:51:28 PM)

But I did find this which is actually quite remarkable and could hold your statements true, especially considering that they did DNA tests and found them to not be homo-sapiens:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/initial-dna-analysis-paracas-elongated-skull-released-incredible
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/545/DNA-Analysis-Of-Paracas-Elongated-Skulls-Released-The-Results-Prove-They-Were-Not-Human

quote:


It had mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) with mutations unknown in any human, primate, or animal known so far. But a few fragments I was able to sequence from this sample indicate that if these mutations will hold we are dealing with a new human-like creature, very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans.


Essentially, even though you didn't seem to provide the information on the DNA testing, it seems that you are correct and that DomKen and I were wrong in our assumptions.





Kirata -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 2:48:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I'm aware of that, but head binding and cradle boarding do not change the volume of the cranial vault, they only change its shape, and they fail to explain the lack of a sagittal suture.

References?

I'm afraid your request confronts me with a conflict of interest, because disabusing you of the notion that changing the shape of a container can alter its volume would diminish the entertainment value of your position.

K.




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 3:48:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I'm aware of that, but head binding and cradle boarding do not change the volume of the cranial vault, they only change its shape, and they fail to explain the lack of a sagittal suture.

References?

I'm afraid your request confronts me with a conflict of interest, because disabusing you of the notion that changing the shape of a container can alter its volume would diminish the entertainment value of your position.

K.


That is not your claim.




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 3:54:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But I did find this which is actually quite remarkable and could hold your statements true, especially considering that they did DNA tests and found them to not be homo-sapiens:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/initial-dna-analysis-paracas-elongated-skull-released-incredible
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/545/DNA-Analysis-Of-Paracas-Elongated-Skulls-Released-The-Results-Prove-They-Were-Not-Human

quote:


It had mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) with mutations unknown in any human, primate, or animal known so far. But a few fragments I was able to sequence from this sample indicate that if these mutations will hold we are dealing with a new human-like creature, very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans.


Essentially, even though you didn't seem to provide the information on the DNA testing, it seems that you are correct and that DomKen and I were wrong in our assumptions.



You are being to quick to accept claims by nuts. These mtDNA claims are that these skulls are the result of human extraterrestrial hybridization which is flat out impossible.




vincentML -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 4:40:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Science has its fundamentalist assholes just like religion, and they are every bit as nasty and dishonest.

An often repeated false equivalency. Just who are these science fundamentalists? And how do they maintain their fundamentalist creed when the central spark of science is to experiment and expose error? And just what is that fundamentalist creed anyway? Well, truth be told, it does not exist. The charge of scientism is a bogus one, brought by patent medicine purveyors, literalist theists, and new-age woo presenters who are trying to sell their alternative goods. It is an old and tread bare tactic, this attempt to level the playing field by demeaning science.

Claiming it's a false equivalency on the basis of a straw man ("the fundamentalist creed") which you dismiss with a flourish ("it does not exist") is pretty thin stuff. Nobody raised a charge of scientism, either, and even if they had you've offered nothing of substance to show that it wouldn't be valid. Ironically, however, it is a characteristic of fundamentalists that they will resort to virtually any kind of legerdemain or ad hominem when they feel exposed.

K.



You don't think fundamentalists have a creed? Ha!

Ad hominem ??? Only in your imagination. Tsk tsk.




vincentML -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 4:53:35 PM)

quote:

A male Great Dane can't realistically mate with a Chihuahua does that make them separate species?

Your example does not illustrate my point, which was that a differentiating marker of speciation is the lack of fertile offspring in cross breeding. The test could be accomplished by using a thin turkey baster on the Chihuahua.




vincentML -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 5:17:05 PM)

quote:

Those are difficult questions. Are dogs, wolves and coyotes separate species? They are all completely interfertile though in general they do not voluntarily interbreed. Basically species is a human concept and it does not map clearly onto organisms. We'll never really know at what point our ancient ancestors were so different from us that we would be infertile with them.

AFAIK, dogs, wolves, and coyotes are separate species.

Speciation is a human concept? The creationists see that as a weak link in the argument for evolution. The founding book of Evolution is titled: Origin of Species. I don't think we can dodge a definition if we wish to argue successfully with Creationists. That's why I find the definition wanting if given as 'genetic drift' or 'allele frequency' in a population. Lack of distinction. I am not busting chops here. Just trying to sort it.

Suppose a creationist asks if human evolution were occurring today? Well, they have. And the answer I frequently see is there are continuing changes in the human genome. But that answer is unsatisfactory. The implicit follow up question is: well, are humans evolving into a new species? And how would you know if a new species of Homo has evolved? That is why I am pained by 'genetic drift' as an answer.




Tkman117 -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 5:33:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But I did find this which is actually quite remarkable and could hold your statements true, especially considering that they did DNA tests and found them to not be homo-sapiens:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/initial-dna-analysis-paracas-elongated-skull-released-incredible
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/545/DNA-Analysis-Of-Paracas-Elongated-Skulls-Released-The-Results-Prove-They-Were-Not-Human

quote:


It had mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) with mutations unknown in any human, primate, or animal known so far. But a few fragments I was able to sequence from this sample indicate that if these mutations will hold we are dealing with a new human-like creature, very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans.


Essentially, even though you didn't seem to provide the information on the DNA testing, it seems that you are correct and that DomKen and I were wrong in our assumptions.



You are being to quick to accept claims by nuts. These mtDNA claims are that these skulls are the result of human extraterrestrial hybridization which is flat out impossible.



They reach no such conclusions in either article Ken. Just because the mtDNA are different does not mean that they are aliens. There are many possibilities, and being a liberal I expected you to have your mind open a little more to these different possibilities. These results are largely preliminary, as they were released just this past week, so there is much more to still be examined and more questions to be answered. Also, I'm not blindly accepting the claims despite how my wording in my previous pm could have conveyed. I'm stating that there is recent evidence giving much more credibility to the thought that they aren't homo-sapiens, so it should give more reason to entertain the theory as a possibility. It's not good to be stuck in your ways, science and those who admire it need to be malleable, if we're not, we're no better than the right wingers.




Milesnmiles -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 5:39:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

They evolved the way all other species did. There was an empty niche in the ecosystem (flowering plants) and the bees (once wasps) filled it, they evolved together to maximize their needs, the flowers needed pollinators and the bees needed food. It's pretty much a symbiotic relationship.
They evolved the way all other species did?
No they didn't, the "normal" evolutionary processes, like natural selection or mutation, don't don't fit honey bees.
;-)




Milesnmiles -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 5:44:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
What do you mean by how?

A population of social wasps became specialized for feeding on flowers?
Comparing honey bees to social wasps is a little like comparing the Taj Mahal to a grass hut, they both have pointy tops.
;-)




Tkman117 -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 5:45:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

They evolved the way all other species did. There was an empty niche in the ecosystem (flowering plants) and the bees (once wasps) filled it, they evolved together to maximize their needs, the flowers needed pollinators and the bees needed food. It's pretty much a symbiotic relationship.
They evolved the way all other species did?
No they didn't, the "normal" evolutionary processes, like natural selection or mutation, don't don't fit honey bees.
;-)



And this claim is based on....what?




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:08:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

But I did find this which is actually quite remarkable and could hold your statements true, especially considering that they did DNA tests and found them to not be homo-sapiens:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/initial-dna-analysis-paracas-elongated-skull-released-incredible
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/545/DNA-Analysis-Of-Paracas-Elongated-Skulls-Released-The-Results-Prove-They-Were-Not-Human

quote:


It had mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) with mutations unknown in any human, primate, or animal known so far. But a few fragments I was able to sequence from this sample indicate that if these mutations will hold we are dealing with a new human-like creature, very distant from Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Denisovans.


Essentially, even though you didn't seem to provide the information on the DNA testing, it seems that you are correct and that DomKen and I were wrong in our assumptions.



You are being to quick to accept claims by nuts. These mtDNA claims are that these skulls are the result of human extraterrestrial hybridization which is flat out impossible.



They reach no such conclusions in either article Ken. Just because the mtDNA are different does not mean that they are aliens. There are many possibilities, and being a liberal I expected you to have your mind open a little more to these different possibilities. These results are largely preliminary, as they were released just this past week, so there is much more to still be examined and more questions to be answered. Also, I'm not blindly accepting the claims despite how my wording in my previous pm could have conveyed. I'm stating that there is recent evidence giving much more credibility to the thought that they aren't homo-sapiens, so it should give more reason to entertain the theory as a possibility. It's not good to be stuck in your ways, science and those who admire it need to be malleable, if we're not, we're no better than the right wingers.

Yes they do make that claim. Look around on the ancient-origins.net site.

Also no researcher works anonymously which is what they claim their geneticist is doing. And such a finding would be released in the scientific press not on some site trying to drum up tours to the area with all sorts of mystical claptrap.

Also how could a completely unknown mutation in mtDNA be used to determine divergence from any other organism? Divergence is measured by comparing accumulation of mutations in known genes over large expanses of genetic material not over a "few fragments." The entire claim stinks of pseudo science.




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:16:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
What do you mean by how?

A population of social wasps became specialized for feeding on flowers?
Comparing honey bees to social wasps is a little like comparing the Taj Mahal to a grass hut, they both have pointy tops.
;-)

Bees are very specialized social wasps you can look up the genetics if you don't believe me.

BTW save me and you a lot of back and forth, post what ever creationist you got this claim from and I'll deal with it directly.




Tkman117 -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:19:22 PM)

While the source itself does, the article referenced does not. However, I did try to track down the source of this "research" and reached a dead end with crazy claims on aliens as you said. I do admit I was wrong and you were right Ken, but regardless it doesn't hurt to entertain other possibilities, they could result in incredible break throughs after all.




DomKen -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:26:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

While the source itself does, the article referenced does not. However, I did try to track down the source of this "research" and reached a dead end with crazy claims on aliens as you said. I do admit I was wrong and you were right Ken, but regardless it doesn't hurt to entertain other possibilities, they could result in incredible break throughs after all.

No big deal. I looked this over yesterday when it was first presented and got to the crazy alien hybrid stuff. That's why I'm trying to get Kirata to do something more than make unsourced assertions. As soon as he posts links to his sources it's straight to crazy alien hybrid stuff I'm sure.




Kirata -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:46:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

While the source itself does, the article referenced does not.

People tend to interpret things to suit whatever idea they're invested in promoting. For some, that means the skulls are "extraterrestrials," for others it means they "are H sapiens skulls." Neither has shit to back them up, but that doesn't make a dent in their certainty. The only difference I can see is that those of the latter persuasion routinely become insulting and start calling you names if you dare to doubt them.

K.





GotSteel -> RE: Evolution/Creation debate (2/10/2014 6:54:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your example does not illustrate my point, which was that a differentiating marker of speciation is the lack of fertile offspring in cross breeding.

My point being that species isn't actually a neat and clean concept in reality, wolves, dogs, and coyotes are all capable of interbreeding and the offspring are fertile. Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals, same thing. The big cats are less so. There's at least one fertile wolphin and so on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species#Difficulty_of_defining_.22species.22_and_identifying_particular_species
It is surprisingly difficult to define the word "species" in a way that applies to all naturally occurring organisms,[15] and the debate among biologists about how to define "species" and how to identify actual species is called the species problem. Over two dozen distinct definitions of "species" are in use amongst biologists.[16]




Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625