quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
It's not impossible but honestly, if you are going to try and claim that creationists are ignorant whack jobs you can't admit that some of them might believe in evolution. Better to claim that they won't have anything to do with evolution and hate science to boot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

Perhaps the complex social system of Honey Bees, which can encompass up to 60,000 bees, of which only two bees hold the genetic coding for, is a bit too complex.

Let's try something simpler, Monarch butterflies.
Monarch butterflies migrate and seem to return to the same trees they started from, simple enough.
The trouble is it takes four generations to do so.
Three generations of egg, the larvae (caterpillar), the pupa (chrysalis), and the adult butterfly that lives about two to six weeks.
Then a forth generation of egg, the larvae, the pupa, but now an adult butterfly that will live for six to eight months until they finish a migration back to the start of their migration.

So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?

What accounts for the forth generation's ability to live 3 to 4 times longer than the other three generations and after three generations to have the "inner knowledge" to return to a place they have never been, to what seem like the same trees and to do this year after year?
;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You shouldn't believe scam artists.

As for being non-human based on mtDNA evidence, in my opinion that is extremely dubious and I would like to see such an assertion to be confirmed by other researchers.

Don't be misled by scam artists. There is absolutely no claim that the skull is not human. The claim is...

I did not express myself sufficiently accurately. I meant not human in the sense of not being Homo sapiens. (I here ignore Neanderthals and Denisovans.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Of possible interest, the sculpture below is of one of Akhenaten's six daughters. It is believed to be Meritaten.

[image]http://euler.slu.edu/~bart/egyptarchive/AmarnaPrincess.jpg[/image]

That is very interesting indeed. It does appear that this individual has two normal brains in her skull. That implies biological engineering and that either she must be a goddess or that the gods performed such biological engineering on prospective kings, even when in the womb.

I wonder what kind of mind such a king / queen would have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is programmed into their genomes. The ones that did have deviating programming had less reproductive success so the frequency of their alleles in the population got reduced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

Perhaps the complex social system of Honey Bees, which can encompass up to 60,000 bees, of which only two bees hold the genetic coding for, is a bit too complex.

Let's try something simpler, Monarch butterflies.
Monarch butterflies migrate and seem to return to the same trees they started from, simple enough.
The trouble is it takes four generations to do so.
Three generations of egg, the larvae (caterpillar), the pupa (chrysalis), and the adult butterfly that lives about two to six weeks.
Then a forth generation of egg, the larvae, the pupa, but now an adult butterfly that will live for six to eight months until they finish a migration back to the start of their migration.

So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?

What accounts for the forth generation's ability to live 3 to 4 times longer than the other three generations and after three generations to have the "inner knowledge" to return to a place they have never been, to what seem like the same trees and to do this year after year?
;-)

It's not multiple generations of butterfly. It's just different stages in the life of a single individual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
How is it "programed" into their genomes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
how does that "programing" change only every forth generation?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
This is complete nonsense. Bee genetics is all between the fertile bees: the queen and the drones. The worker bees must be considered for evolution to have equivalent importance as any other organ of either queen or drone. If such an organ contributes to the reproductive success of either queen or drone, the gene encoding it will be selected for.

Talk about nonsense. You can "consider" the drones to be anything you want but in reality they are not a "organ" of the queen. If you called human children an organ of the parent, people would laugh you out of this thread. Yet you think doing so for insects makes it, okay.
;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

Perhaps the complex social system of Honey Bees, which can encompass up to 60,000 bees, of which only two bees hold the genetic coding for, is a bit too complex.

Let's try something simpler, Monarch butterflies.
Monarch butterflies migrate and seem to return to the same trees they started from, simple enough.
The trouble is it takes four generations to do so.
Three generations of egg, the larvae (caterpillar), the pupa (chrysalis), and the adult butterfly that lives about two to six weeks.
Then a forth generation of egg, the larvae, the pupa, but now an adult butterfly that will live for six to eight months until they finish a migration back to the start of their migration.

So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?

What accounts for the forth generation's ability to live 3 to 4 times longer than the other three generations and after three generations to have the "inner knowledge" to return to a place they have never been, to what seem like the same trees and to do this year after year?
;-)

It's not multiple generations of butterfly. It's just different stages in the life of a single individual.

So you're saying that four generations, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, are but one single individual? Once again you seem to be pushing credulity a bit.
;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
This is complete nonsense. Bee genetics is all between the fertile bees: the queen and the drones. The worker bees must be considered for evolution to have equivalent importance as any other organ of either queen or drone. If such an organ contributes to the reproductive success of either queen or drone, the gene encoding it will be selected for.

Talk about nonsense. You can "consider" the drones to be anything you want but in reality they are not a "organ" of the queen. If you called human children an organ of the parent, people would laugh you out of this thread. Yet you think doing so for insects makes it, okay.
;-)

Come on man, wake the hamster up and take another look, that isn't remotely what Rule said.

[image]local://upfiles/566126/87D52B90A2964E61AEA618EBCBD85918.jpg[/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

Perhaps the complex social system of Honey Bees, which can encompass up to 60,000 bees, of which only two bees hold the genetic coding for, is a bit too complex.

Let's try something simpler, Monarch butterflies.
Monarch butterflies migrate and seem to return to the same trees they started from, simple enough.
The trouble is it takes four generations to do so.
Three generations of egg, the larvae (caterpillar), the pupa (chrysalis), and the adult butterfly that lives about two to six weeks.
Then a forth generation of egg, the larvae, the pupa, but now an adult butterfly that will live for six to eight months until they finish a migration back to the start of their migration.

So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?

What accounts for the forth generation's ability to live 3 to 4 times longer than the other three generations and after three generations to have the "inner knowledge" to return to a place they have never been, to what seem like the same trees and to do this year after year?
;-)

It's not multiple generations of butterfly. It's just different stages in the life of a single individual.

So you're saying that four generations, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, are but one single individual? Once again you seem to be pushing credulity a bit.
;-)

No, I said that egg to caterpillar to pupae to butterfly is one individual.
http://www.thebutterflysite.com/life-cycle.shtml

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

Perhaps the complex social system of Honey Bees, which can encompass up to 60,000 bees, of which only two bees hold the genetic coding for, is a bit too complex.

Let's try something simpler, Monarch butterflies.
Monarch butterflies migrate and seem to return to the same trees they started from, simple enough.
The trouble is it takes four generations to do so.
Three generations of egg, the larvae (caterpillar), the pupa (chrysalis), and the adult butterfly that lives about two to six weeks.
Then a forth generation of egg, the larvae, the pupa, but now an adult butterfly that will live for six to eight months until they finish a migration back to the start of their migration.

So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?

What accounts for the forth generation's ability to live 3 to 4 times longer than the other three generations and after three generations to have the "inner knowledge" to return to a place they have never been, to what seem like the same trees and to do this year after year?
;-)

It's not multiple generations of butterfly. It's just different stages in the life of a single individual.

So you're saying that four generations, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, egg to butterfly, are but one single individual? Once again you seem to be pushing credulity a bit.
;-)

No, I said that egg to caterpillar to pupae to butterfly is one individual.
http://www.thebutterflysite.com/life-cycle.shtml

Then I suggest that you reread what was said. I pointed out that it takes four generations of "egg to caterpillar to pupae to butterfly" or as you put it four individuals to make one complete migration and that the last individual, as you put it, lives 3 to 4 times longer than the other three individuals. That last individual is three generations from having ever been in Mexico and yet returns to the same trees it's great grandparents left. http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/monarch-migration.html
So again I ask, what is the Evolutionary mechanism that accounts for this?
;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
No. It. is one individual that makes the trip. They are born in the north, reach adulthood, fly south, winter in Mexico, fly north, mate, reproduce and die.in one year.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sorry DomKen.
In the link that Miles gave, he is correct in that (for the US), the Monarch butterfly has 3 generations, each of about 6 weeks, then a 4th generation that lives longer and makes the migration south (although that link does state that not all Monarchs migrate).
Your premise that each single life-cycle of the Monarch migrates and returns each year is not correct (according to Miles' link).

quote:

My guess is, much like the temperature that triggers that 4th generation to migrate, it is also the combination of temp and growth stage of the milkweed that the larvae feed on that trigger a chemical change in that last generation that allow it a much longer lifespan to make that migration.

Just like many plants, once the milkweed has grown and flowered, it undergoes a chemical change within itself so that its flowers (if pollenated) turn to seed and once ejected (and landing on fertile ground of course) will germinate in the spring as a new plant.
That would make sense to me (and fairly obvious too) - a chemical change triggered by temperature and growth stage of the milkweed plant (ie, getting old and ready to seed) is enough to create a chemical change in the Monarchs' final stage of the 4th generation so it can live long enough to migrate to its winter grounds and return.
The previous 3 generations of Monarchs are feeding on growing and flowering milkweed; the 4th generation are catching the milkweed when it's just about to seed and germinate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
No. It. is one individual that makes the trip. They are born in the north, reach adulthood, fly south, winter in Mexico, fly north, mate, reproduce and die.in one year.

Really? One individual makes the whole trip? You know that web site that you cited? http://www.thebutterflysite.com/life-cycle.shtml go to the top of the page and click on Monarchs. That will take you to the website http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/, now click on Monarch Butterfly Migration and that will take you to http://www.monarch-butterfly.com/monarch-migration.html there in the second paragraph it says;
"Monarch butterflies use the very same trees each and every year when they migrate, which seems odd because they aren’t the same butterflies that were there last year. These are the new fourth generation of monarch butterflies, so how do they know which trees are the right ones to hibernate in?"

May I suggest that you write to this saddly misinformed website, that your cited website lead me to and tell them that they are horribly mistaken and that it only takes one generation to complete the migration and not four.

After you're done with that, you might want to inform these web sites as well, that they incorrect in saying in takes three to four generations for one migration;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_%28butterfly%29
http://www.fs.fed.us/wildflowers/pollinators/monarchbutterfly/migration/
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/us/monarch-butterflies-falter-under-extreme-weather.html?_r=0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/monarch-butterfly-migration_n_4688709.html
http://www.monarchwatch.org/tagmig/index.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140129-monarch-butterflies-mexico-animals-science-environment-migration-nation/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/monarch-butterflies-birthplaces/
etc.
;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

DNA can be thought of as a 4 letter code (A, C, G, T).

It could be. By people who don't know what they're talking about and are totally incorrect in even the most basic aspects of the topic.

I mean, who would parade such ignorance as to confuse the nucleobases (guanine, adenine, thymine, and cytosine) with the actual molecule!

Someone who was describing what DNA does inside the cell. Which was the part you edited out. Would you have me spend a few thousand lines discussing sugars, bases, RNA, transcription, translation, ribosomes and all the rest of the stuff actually necessary to explain mutations?

If you need a few thousand lines to get the facts correct, then write them. It's to your own benefit to be able to convey FACTUALLY CORRECT INFORMATION. I imagine many people can simply use the correct terminology, as I did, and not require that much exposition. But you do whatever you need to do to not appear ignorant. Or appear ignorant. Not my problem either way, since I'm smart enough to ignore the bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The same individuals do fly south, over winter, fly north, reproduce and die. they are not born directly from the previous generation of monarchs that did so.

quote:

As to how they find their way?
http://www.nature.com/news/monarch-butterflies-navigate-with-compass-but-no-map-1.12756