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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 6:14:05 AM

vincentML

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quote:

Simple. Cooperation has a higher adaptive value than being a lonely douchebag.

Maybe cooperation is a human construct and when we perceive it in other animals it is herd behavior encouraged by species odor. Just speculating.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/14/2014 6:22:41 AM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 6:22:46 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Human's are social animals. Our survival has always been oriented towards survival as part of the group. So "moral" behavior is behavior that benefits the social group so it does provide a fitness benefit and will be selected for..

This may be a 'chicken or egg' issue. Human progeny are born premature and helpless so females selected mates who were likely to stay nearby and provide sustenance. The kinship group developed as a consequence. But that is not to say group cooperation is genetically selected. There is a great deal of individual conflict within human and chimp social groups. Additionally, our social structures seem mainly hierarchal. That suggests that cooperation is enforced rather than a moral imperative.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 6:35:17 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
New research as reported HERE seems to show babies as young as three months know the difference between good and bad and given a choice will choose good. Otherwise humans are born good.

First of all it's not as simple as being born "good". Good and evil the way they are used in the Bible are a fairy tale. Children are however hardwired to pick up their societies morality similar to ho they're hardwired to pick up their socities language.

Here's one example of what they're actually testing from your link:

*"Wesley watches as the puppet in the center struggles to open up a box with a toy inside. The puppy in the yellow shirt comes over and lends a hand. Then the scene repeats itself, but this time the puppy in the blue shirt comes and slams the box shut. Nice behavior...mean behavior...at least to our eyes. But is that how a 5-month-old sees it, and does he have a preference?"*

Of course the child would rather hang out with somebody that would help him out rather than somebody who would fuck him over, wouldn't you?

Furthermore being able to keep track of that is quite useful to survival in group animals, which is one reason why group animals (not just humans) have evolved hardware to process such things and memory to keep track of such things.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 6:49:10 AM

eulero83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

New research as reported HERE seems to show babies as young as three months know the difference between good and bad and given a choice will choose good. Otherwise humans are born good.

Does it seem strange to anyone else that this would be true. I would think if Darwin and natural selection were to be true then bad would be the safest choice rather than good. Otherwise as in nature and natural selection the fittest is the survivor… not the one who would share and make a moral selection.

I do not see morality being a survival technique in nature…so why is it instilled in humans from birth.

Why do you think…if the research is valid…this would be?

Butch

I would not define three years as being a blank slate, as they learned to talk they also listned their parents telling them "no.. don't do this or that", anyway just wait for your little angel to spot a toy he likes in the hands of another toddler and he'll just show how moral he is while commiting theft, assoult and battery.

ETA: no it doesn't disprove evolution, that's another thing.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 2/14/2014 6:50:04 AM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 7:19:24 AM

GeekyCouplePHX

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Maybe cooperation is a human construct and when we perceive it in other animals it is herd behavior encouraged by species odor. Just speculating.

Cooperation has been demonstrated by all Great Apes and monkeys, as well as Elephants Dolphins and Whales; so basically any creature that science believes to be self-aware non-human persons cooperate among each other, even across different groups, tribes, and even species. Cooperation among non-sapient animals that live in social groups like wolves are also heavily documented as well.

Monkeys understand the abstract concept of 'unfairness' and act out when they see another monkey being treated worse then they are. Dolphins have been seen helping injured whales stay afloat above the water to breathe. Orca tribes that meet share their hunting skills and songs freely among each other.

Cognitive Biology is a passion of mine, and I have the privilege to be friends with a number of researchers in the field. There are a surprising number of aspects of what we consider 'human' behavior that other animals also exhibit.

< Message edited by GeekyCouplePHX -- 2/14/2014 7:20:32 AM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 8:39:39 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Good and evil the way they are used in the Bible are a fairy tale. Children are however hardwired to pick up their societies morality similar to ho they're hardwired to pick up their socities language.

Your predilection for inventing opportunities to trash religion aside, it is manifestly not true that children are simply "hardwired to pick up their societies [sic] morality."

Human brains are hardwired for empathy, friendship

A basic sense of fairness and altruism appears in infancy... as young as 15 months ~Source

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/14/2014 8:54:37 AM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 12:06:30 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Cooperation has been demonstrated by all Great Apes and monkeys, as well as Elephants Dolphins and Whales; so basically any creature that science believes to be self-aware non-human persons cooperate among each other, even across different groups, tribes, and even species. Cooperation among non-sapient animals that live in social groups like wolves are also heavily documented as well.

Firstly, how do you infer or measure sapience in other mammals? That is a big assumption.

Secondly, chimpanzees are know to murder their own tribal members. Polar bear males murder their own progeny.

Thirdly, my point was we may only be speculating when we impute human motives to non-human mammals.

quote:

Cognitive Biology is a passion of mine, and I have the privilege to be friends with a number of researchers in the field.

Glad you have friends. Congratulations.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 2/14/2014 12:10:29 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 12:28:07 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Good and evil the way they are used in the Bible are a fairy tale. Children are however hardwired to pick up their societies morality similar to ho they're hardwired to pick up their socities language.

Your predilection for inventing opportunities to trash religion aside, it is manifestly not true that children are simply "hardwired to pick up their societies [sic] morality."

Human brains are hardwired for empathy, friendship

A basic sense of fairness and altruism appears in infancy... as young as 15 months ~Source

K.

The study you linked does not conclude that human brains are hardwired for empathy or friendship.

From the article:

Does this mean that fairness and altruism are due to nature, or can these qualities be nurtured? Sommerville's research team is investigating this question now, looking at how parents' values and beliefs alter an infant's development.

"It's likely that infants pick up on these norms in a nonverbal way, by observing how people treat each other," Sommerville said.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 12:59:24 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Human brains are hardwired for empathy, friendship

The study you linked does not conclude that human brains are hardwired for empathy or friendship.

From the article...

Very cute, Vincent, but your quote "from the article" is not from the article on human brains being hardwired for empathy.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/14/2014 1:18:32 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 2:15:04 PM

kdsub

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Three months not years...no language involved

Butch

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 2:39:51 PM

kdsub

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If you can put your religious bias aside for just a minute would you not agree that good and evil are concepts that stand outside of religion… Lets just use their dictionary definitions.

You speak of hardwired… I am asking why they became hardwired that way. If we go back the 300,000 or so years or even further… At that time why was the choice made to be moral as opposed to most other species that used survival of the fittest?

To me as least none of the reasons given so far would explain why morality would be needed. Society does not need morality, individuals and past civilizations have shown that. Cooperation and friendship do not need morality… there can be friendship and cooperation in an adversarial relationship… After all Hitler had friends and he certainly had people to cooperate with him. There have certainly been successful examples of evil but it does seem that morality prevails in the end.
.
All reasons given so far would work just as well and perhaps better if the basic human nature was to be completely self centered, selfish, and to use force both physically and mentally to survive and flourish.

Hardwiring would require thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of years of a compelling difference in actions that promoted survival to become innate. I cannot see where morality would be a compelling difference over survival of the fittest in a primitive situation.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/14/2014 2:45:31 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 3:19:39 PM

eulero83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you can put your religious bias aside for just a minute would you not agree that good and evil are concepts that stand outside of religion… Lets just use their dictionary definitions.

yes but they usually fit a social structure that maximize the well being of the population during that time and in that place, and religon tends to make those structures stronger.

quote:

You speak of hardwired… I am asking why they became hardwired that way. If we go back the 300,000 or so years or even further… At that time why was the choice made to be moral as opposed to most other species that used survival of the fittest?

like all the other species that use social structures to survive: trough evolution and natural selection

quote:

To me as least none of the reasons given so far would explain why morality would be needed. Society does not need morality, individuals and past civilizations have shown that. Cooperation and friendship do not need morality… there can be friendship and cooperation in an adversarial relationship… After all Hitler had friends and he certainly had people to cooperate with him. There have certainly been successful examples of evil but it does seem that morality prevails in the end.

so there is a need for morality in the end... your last sentence in the period contraddicts the first one.

quote:

All reasons given so far would work just as well and perhaps better if the basic human nature was to be completely self centered, selfish, and to use force both physically and mentally to survive and flourish.

you mean like... declaring war for natural resources? this is not something you can see among humans...

quote:

Hardwiring would require thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of years of a compelling difference in actions that promoted survival to become innate. I cannot see where morality would be a compelling difference over survival of the fittest in a primitive situation.

Butch

the tricky part of natural selection is you don't decide what's better, in a certain time part of the population is just wiped out by adverse natural conditions, and it's not always for the better.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 2/14/2014 3:20:31 PM >

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 3:40:53 PM

kdsub

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I believe you are missing my point... you keep talking of social structures and natural selection. I am saying I see no compelling reason for morality to be an advantage that would make it a natural selection in the beginning.

There is no contradiction...I was just showing that there can be a successful civilization of evil. The only reason they failed was because of mans mysterious innate morality...Which is what we are seeking answers for.

Butch

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 3:54:49 PM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe you are missing my point... you keep talking of social structures and natural selection. I am saying I see no compelling reason for morality to be an advantage that would make it a natural selection in the beginning.

There is no contradiction...I was just showing that there can be a successful civilization of evil. The only reason they failed was because of mans mysterious innate morality...Which is what we are seeking answers for.

Butch

I disagree. Evil can certainly triumph for a short period, by subverting the checks and balances that morality implies, but it doesn't prosper over the long term.

I believe that ethics/morals aren't a social nicety, they're essential for the long term success of the species.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 4:16:50 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I disagree. Evil can certainly triumph for a short period, by subverting the checks and balances that morality implies, but it doesn't prosper over the long term.

I believe that ethics/morals aren't a social nicety, they're essential for the long term success of the species.

No evil does not triumph...why... because of the innate morality of the majority... not because evil will not work... It works just fine.

Butch

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 5:15:38 PM

evesgrden

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If we were innately moral, communism would work.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 7:18:32 PM

kdsub

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Not really... I am absolutely sure that the majority of people in N. Korea... or Iran... or Pakistan have the same innate morality...but in my opinion it is a morality on a personal level... it does not necessarily go any further than that.

Butch

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 11:34:00 PM

eulero83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I believe you are missing my point... you keep talking of social structures and natural selection. I am saying I see no compelling reason for morality to be an advantage that would make it a natural selection in the beginning.

There is no contradiction...I was just showing that there can be a successful civilization of evil. The only reason they failed was because of mans mysterious innate morality...Which is what we are seeking answers for.

Butch

The experiment showed three monts babies could detect a threat or a possible allied and they are chauvinist, no morality involved. Morality is not even the same in all the world during this time and had been very different trough recent history... so what morality are you talking about? Are them ready to kill in order to join the walhalla?

Romans were violent, aggressive and slavist I'd say in our modern standards they were quite evil they failed when meaner and more violent peoples arrived. So again your point is just wrong.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 11:38:46 PM

ElectraGlide

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If your parents were Crack Heads and you were born a Crack Baby, you would be screwed, you would most likely be one rotten apple for life.

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RE: Are we born….Good? - 2/14/2014 11:51:56 PM

ElectraGlide

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It is something we can't figure out, there was a lady on 60 Minutes that was poor and raised in the slums of New York City that went on to Harvard, then you have The Melendez Brothers raised on the golden spoon killing their father. It likes self help books, we are not wired the same, it might work for a lot of people, but not all.

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