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RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 5:42:18 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		It would have been simpler to address all abrahamic religions?
but no...piss farting about and whang whacking is so much more.....fun
NOT

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Profile   Post #: 341
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 5:52:48 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		For me, it would be even more fun to deal with the question of, 'How and why did homophobia get started?'. I asked that a while ago but the question vanished underneath the argument that was going on then.

I read some interesting stuff, though it was all pretty speculative, unsurprisingly. One view did stick out as plausible for me, though: that in the times of yore it was vital for the monarch to be bonking females rather than males otherwise, horror of horrors, his bloodline was in jeopardy. The toiling masses also had to be bonking heterosexually otherwise there'd be no future masses to toil for the king and the landowners.

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Profile   Post #: 342
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 6:07:47 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		[Ed for pointlessness]

MM... We will have to disagree on this one, you acknowledge that context is important on one hand, then create a specious argument to the opposite on the other. I don't know what's come over you, but I had come to expect more.

Perhaps we're both having bad days.


< Message edited by crazyml -- 7/1/2014 6:23:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 343
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 6:10:43 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		apart from the fact that the propagation of the species was important for survival back in the day , it was built into religion.

bears sucking each other off (http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/17/apparently-its-official-gay-male-bears-enjoy-oral-sex-4765658/) is nothing new, it happens in most animals, it s only "religion. that makes it wrong
and certainly in the current day can its roots be found in religion, anyone who states otherwise isnt playing with a full deck.

But then ...meh what does that matter here

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Profile   Post #: 344
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 6:20:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Does that mean you were lying when you claimed you keep having your tires slashed?

That was a few incidents well in the past dumbass. Can't you fucking read moron?

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Profile   Post #: 345
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 6:39:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

[Ed for pointlessness]

MM... We will have to disagree on this one, you acknowledge that context is important on one hand, then create a specious argument to the opposite on the other. I don't know what's come over you, but I had come to expect more.

Perhaps we're both having bad days.


At issue is whether context *changes* the meaning. It doesn't. It adds layers (assuming the rest of the paragraph actually says something).

Hardly an issue that calls for nasty personal attacks.


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Profile   Post #: 346
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 6:52:57 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

bears sucking each other off (http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/17/apparently-its-official-gay-male-bears-enjoy-oral-sex-4765658/)


I do wonder if there'd ever been homophobia written into any religion if the writers had lived in areas where they might have been more acquainted with the habits of bonobo monkeys. I mean, those creatures: if it's furry and moves, they'll hump it.

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Profile   Post #: 347
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 7:00:06 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

[Ed for pointlessness]

MM... We will have to disagree on this one, you acknowledge that context is important on one hand, then create a specious argument to the opposite on the other. I don't know what's come over you, but I had come to expect more.

Perhaps we're both having bad days.


At issue is whether context *changes* the meaning. It doesn't. It adds layers (assuming the rest of the paragraph actually says something).


That's not what's at issue. The issue is whether context affects meaning, and whether it is either fair or reasonable to take a sentence out of its context and debate its meaning in isolation.

I happen to think that it's neither fair nor reasonable, in fact I think it's fucking silly. You think otherwise. Fine.

quote:


Hardly an issue that calls for nasty personal attacks.


Oh really? Perhaps you'd be good enough to link to these "nasty personal attacks".

And reflect, for yourself on whether "fuck off" might not be construed as something nasty and unpleasant?

You're one of the sharpest people on the board MM, which is why it is so terribly disappointing to see you like this.



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Profile   Post #: 348
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 7:16:49 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well, since examining the separate points of an argument is how it's been done since Socrates, perhaps you'll publish your wisdom and revolutionize language, rhetoric, and logic.

Until then, you're just being a dick. Pretending you're not is even sillier.

Do it alone. This nonsense is just going in circles.

You have no argument except "uh-uh...I don't think that's true."

Oddly, it's neither compelling nor convincing. Go figure.

By yourself.

Forgive me if I forgo any need for your stamp of approval.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/1/2014 7:17:22 AM >

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 349
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 7:23:22 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		[Ed for the kind of typo that makes you look like a buffoon]

You're confusing "the separate points of argument" with individual sentences. While you can certainly make a separate and distinct point in a single sentence, it is certainly possible to use a paragraph to make a single point as well. Oddly, this is an important lesson one learns when reading the Dialogues (you know... by <finger quotes>Socrates</finger quote>

Ask one of your post-grad professional writer students, they'll be able to explain that subtlety to you.

But you're right, there's no joy for either of us in this exchange, is there?

< Message edited by crazyml -- 7/1/2014 7:25:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 350
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 7:33:54 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Gosh, and you see nothing nasty about that.

Of course a paragraph makes a point as well.

But it doesn't make the sentence mean something it didn't mean.

The silly attacks on my professional understanding are just that--silly. Whatever.

Maybe someone can explain what "nasty" means to you.

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Profile   Post #: 351
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 11:22:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

The fact that she was talking about predominantly Christian nations is of no consequence to the objection I raised, and the rest of her post was just a rationalization...

Just checking: does the bolded part of that sentence mean that you agree that Lauren was talking about predominantly Christian nations? I'd rather ask you, and accept your clarification, than get into parsing sentences, checking with online dictionaries on the rules of grammar, etc, etc, you see.

Sure, but the context is irrelevant. That's why I ignored it. She's just scapegoating. The problem is human nature. Any value held by a significant number of the members of a group, tribe or whatever, will predictably become codified in its laws or religion. But neither the law nor religion is at the root of those values, and neither have ever had much effect on human nature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

But Christianity's sexual sins also include fornication and adultery, of which the Church has been unstinting in its frequent and emphatic condemnation. Yet despite centuries of preaching, Christians continue happily fornicating and cheating on their wives. To claim in the face of such conspicuous and resounding failure that Christianity somehow managed to bring a Svengali-like power to bear in the sole case of perpetuating homophobia has all the ingredients for a Twilight Zone episode.

Interesting observation. For me, the evidence looks pretty damned abundant that the Church has played the role of perpetuating homophobia in just the way most of its critics say. My first thought: fornicating and cheating is 'evil', but homosexuality is 'both evil and unnatural'?

There is something to be said for institutional inertia, but her argument is nowhere near that rational. What she has been claiming, explicitly and quoteably, is that the homophobia in western society was created by Christianity. It's absurd on its face. Christianity can't even create chaste priests.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/1/2014 11:40:01 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 352
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/1/2014 7:27:32 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
That's not what's at issue. The issue is whether context affects meaning, and whether it is either fair or reasonable to take a sentence out of its context and debate its meaning in isolation.


I can't believe this is even in question, I think a quote by Charles Darwin provides a good example of the problem with this tactic:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darwin
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.


If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution doesn't it, whereas if one reads the whole paragraph the opposite is true.

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Profile   Post #: 353
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 6:08:26 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution doesn't it, whereas if one reads the whole paragraph the opposite is true.



It didn't sound to me like he didn't believe in evolution. It seems to me he was simply confessing that one aspect of it, on it's face, seems absurd. The way he worded it suggests he was simply acknowledging a weak point in his pro-evolution belief.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/2/2014 6:13:28 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 8:53:16 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution doesn't it, whereas if one reads the whole paragraph the opposite is true.

It didn't sound to me like he didn't believe in evolution. It seems to me he was simply confessing that one aspect of it, on it's face, seems absurd.

Aw c'mon, Raiikun, what the sentence actually fucking says is a "straw man".

K.

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Profile   Post #: 355
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 10:47:07 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
That's not what's at issue. The issue is whether context affects meaning, and whether it is either fair or reasonable to take a sentence out of its context and debate its meaning in isolation.


I can't believe this is even in question, I think a quote by Charles Darwin provides a good example of the problem with this tactic:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darwin
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.


If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution doesn't it, whereas if one reads the whole paragraph the opposite is true.

Then you aren't good at reading comprehension. Darwin is acknowledging that the view "seems" absurd (not that he believes it is), and is *clearly* engaging in a common rhetorical strategy, concession/qualification. This is the concession. What follows is the qualification, and the evidence for that qualified claim.

Yup, that's going to happen in a paragraph or few or many. But this sentence still means what it says, both alone and in the context of that/those paragraph/s.

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Profile   Post #: 356
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 1:22:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

If you just take this first sentence it sure sounds like Darwin doesn't believe in evolution doesn't it, whereas if one reads the whole paragraph the opposite is true.



It didn't sound to me like he didn't believe in evolution. It seems to me he was simply confessing that one aspect of it, on it's face, seems absurd. The way he worded it suggests he was simply acknowledging a weak point in his pro-evolution belief.

The quote is frequently used by creationists to claim the Darwin didn't believe the eye could have evolved. It is one of the most common and famous quote mines out there.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA113_1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context#.22Absurd_in_the_highest_degree.22

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Profile   Post #: 357
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 1:25:20 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's not that it's out of context, but that the mis-readers are pretending the verb "seems" means "is."

It is also out of context, yes, but the sentence itself doesn't say what they're claiming it does.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 7/2/2014 1:27:12 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 358
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 1:45:00 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's not that it's out of context, but that the mis-readers are pretending the verb "seems" means "is."

It is also out of context, yes, but the sentence itself doesn't say what they're claiming it does.



Hell yes, it is out of context. Darwin is using a rhetorical device. In context the sentence leaves no doubt as to his meaning.
quote:

To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound.

See? He is proposing a possible objection to his thesis and then dealing with it. But taken out of context it appears he is saying his own theory is wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 359
RE: -=Federal Judge Strikes Down Virginia Gay Marriage ... - 7/2/2014 1:48:35 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		lol -- that's exactly what I pointed out a couple posts earlier, Einstein:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4709104

See?


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Profile   Post #: 360
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