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D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 2:29:16 PM

ExiledTyrant

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The great D/s M/s debate rages on...

The decline of Gor gives me mixed feelings. I do miss the days when the Goreans would come over, snip out all the fantasy and discuss the dynamic. Gor was a uniform set of practice, protocol, and etiquette. It was an M/s institution, and I'm confident that many dynamics adopted parts and pieces of Gor on some level.

I do like the continuity, it works well in social settings. Eliminates a lot of confusion as to the "degree of approachability/interaction" you could have. The slave is slave, he/she may serve you, but he/she is masters. You can/could put the slave on task, as long as said task did not divert him/her from serving master.

It's a crap shoot without the continuity of protocol. Gorean events were hellish fun to attend, you really knew where you stood, and catching a group of knowledgable Goreans together that were beyond dick measuring, just made for a great weekend.

I don't so much mourn Gor, as I mourn the structure of it sans fantasy superiority. One of my arguments... Which never really became an argument, just a logical statement that most Goreans could agree with, was that Norman was working for a living and had to remain PC for the times. After that statement, and much rumination from the "substantial" Goreans, they agreed and allowed Kajirus on their board, sans stupidity.

Once our Goreans got comfortable on our "mainstream side" things really took an interesting turn. We had input from 24/7 TPE people that lived it every moment. We had good people leaving the Gor at the door and offering profound insights into the 24/7 dynamic and life was good. They helped a lot of newbies with their perspective on TPE, and we discovered pretty quickly how married Gor was to the mainstream. (Yep, this is where you hurrumph)

Soooo... I guess what I'm eluding to is, how has Gorean structure influenced your D/s M/s dynamic, if at all, and/or does the structure of Gor, sans the ridiculous fantasy male superiority dribble, appeal to you on any level?

Curious
Exiled

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 2:38:31 PM

LadyConstanze

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I found the books pretty badly written (I think I only managed 2 or 3 of them, then the gag reflex took over) and always thought of them as soft core porn for insecure guys, thinly disguised as fantasy, a place where joe average would be the master and ride one of those funny animals.

I don't quite get the decline of Gor, did everybody all of a sudden stop reading the books, or did they all decide to stop role playing?

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 2:45:43 PM

ExiledTyrant

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I think reality sat in, and the overwhelming arguments of interpretation finally caved it all in. Nevertheless, at a Gorean event you were very clear on where you stood. The rules of the game were always simple, it was just all the dick measuring that was the harbinger of Gor's doom.

I mean, look at the Gorean renegade we have wandering around here, measuring tape in hand at all times.

Jus sayin
Exiled

P.S. I always hated walking into a debate unarmed. My secret was I kept a puke bucket next to my reading chair and manned up.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 2:54:39 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
Soooo... I guess what I'm eluding to is, how has Gorean structure influenced your D/s M/s dynamic, if at all, and/or does the structure of Gor, sans the ridiculous fantasy male superiority dribble, appeal to you on any level?

While I readily acknowledge that Gor, much more than BDSM, represents the core of what passes for a dynamic between Carol and I it was never the "structure" that was significant for me. In fact, the structure is the fantasy part. It's an artificial structure based on an artificial society in a fantasy series. For me, Gor was a view of D/s that was not kink based but rather more like what a biologist might have. The reality of D/s when viewed objectively is... well.. highly dynamic.

I don't seek to eliminate confusion in my life. I prefer to embrace complexity which is synonymous with embracing reality. This is exactly why I'm not a gorean and also exactly why I'm not a BDSM'er.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 2:59:56 PM

ARIES83

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Some of the smartest people that I've had the privilege to come across, have been influenced by Gor in some way.
What's the purpose of all the puke stuff, why walk into a debate at all if that's your attitude towards the subject matter...

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:01:26 PM

ExiledTyrant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Some of the smartest people that I've had the privilege to come across, have been influenced by Gor in some way.
What's the purpose of all the puke stuff, why walk into a debate at all if that's your attitude towards the subject matter...

Have you read the books?

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:04:22 PM

ARIES83

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I did...

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:05:23 PM

ExiledTyrant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I did...

All of them and you didn't understand the "puke" reference?

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:14:14 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Some of the smartest people that I've had the privilege to come across, have been influenced by Gor in some way.
What's the purpose of all the puke stuff, why walk into a debate at all if that's your attitude towards the subject matter...

The books are really really badly written and cliche ridden, the whole thing reminded me of Ron L Hubbard's books, and both kinda spawned some weird cult following, now if only Scientology would fold that easily, mind you some of the people who are into that Scientology crap are damned smart, goes only to show that people can be taken in.
I have a lot of respect for some Gor folks, but they didn't take themselves all that seriously, it didn't rule their lives, just like most people are able to enjoy parts of BDSM and not let it rule their lives and become slaves to it.

Anyway, the books were kind of aimed at the same people that will read Mills & Boons, just another gender, compared to the Gor books (unless I really picked up the 2 or 3 that were exceedingly bad which I doubt) seemed to be aimed at randy teenage boys who aren't old enough to buy porn, or guys in their 3rd spring, refusing to admit that they want to read porn. Actually a lot like the 50 Shades of "elongated" Blah

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:19:54 PM

ExiledTyrant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I have a lot of respect for some Gor folks,

IB being our go to Gorean oracle of reason and substance.... Back in the day ;)

Jus sayin
Exiled

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:26:30 PM

LadyConstanze

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Forgot the name but Bear something I think? He made a lot of sense and could hold a conversation without disappearing up his own rectum...

The funny thing about most of the pseudo warriors of Gor was that they seemed to be kinda scared of of women who weren't submissive and tried to make little snide remarks (some still try, guess the measuring band still doesn't add magic inches), I might actually go on a happy trail and just read through some old threads to amuse myself

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:36:37 PM

shiftyw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

He made a lot of sense and could hold a conversation without disappearing up his own rectum...

I just choked on my drink I started laughing so suddenly.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 3:48:36 PM

LadyPact

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Personally, I can't say that Gor itself has had an influence. Being a leather person, I do try to translate some of your (Gor) protocols into what it would be for Me on the leather side. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. We do have a major impasse between leather and Gor and that would be the gender issue. For leather folks, gender doesn't play a part of who has greater seniority, etc. Of course, there are some Gorean men that can't handle a female being "Master" anything.

For the most part though, I get on ok with most Gorean folks. (Save one. The one that decided he was BDSM at one point and I told the Goreans that the BDSM folks took a vote and wanted to give him back.) Being a leather chick, I don't think that's half bad. I've had a lot of good conversations with those who identify as Gorean over the years and I've found most of them to have a lot of knowledge about various things. A few I'd even consider friends. We just don't match on the one particular philosophy.

ETA - LadyC, you are thinking of IronBear. I used to enjoy talking with him.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 2/15/2014 3:49:28 PM >

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 4:01:12 PM

ARIES83

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There are 30 books. Some are hard to make it through without a lot of skipping, some are genuinely entertaining, in some the rants about the natural order detract from the story, in some he really nails some solid story writing and actually manages hit some home runs, in terms of his style and content.

The fact is that a lot of people that call themselves Gorean, are not. (by my definition...) Although some are, and it's unfortunate that those that are, are lumped into the same category as those who are an embarrassment.

Gorean ethos leads people to believe certain things, and just as with... Christianity for example. Those who choose to debate and discuss those things using a book as evidence rather than reality, are annoying to debate with. Although taking those principles and ethics and applying them in a real context, is interesting.

As it is with the principles so it is with the people, when their focus is the fiction they are annoying. However those who are firmly based in real society, are interesting.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/15/2014 4:04:04 PM >

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 4:10:19 PM

LadyConstanze

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I think you're right, he was really interesting to talk to and had none of that male supremacy BS, which I find just as annoying as female supremacy, for me supremacy of a gender is as absurd as defining people by pigmentation.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 4:12:05 PM

ExiledTyrant

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Yep, I sure miss IB. Especially when Hup was running around recklessly on the Gorean threads ;)

Exiled

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 4:19:10 PM

Missokyst

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I believe that what I detested most about Gor were the protocols.
Tossing aside the ridiculous premise that men are superior to females, it was the assumption that some people were meant to be honored simply because they "were".
I don't get that and never have. Way back, long before my adulthood I found that not all adults had smarts, and not all rich people were any more special than lower classes.
I discovered that if I interacted with adults or the wealthy on their level there was no need for putting anyone on a platform above me. I discussed politics with teachers, religion with priests, labor laws and strikes with union workers and they listened, much to my surprise. It was this kind of upbringing which formed my distaste for pretense. For me only people who deserve reverence get it, otherwise you and I walk the same plane. Gor elevated some people and my logical self could not accept that without questions.
So no, nothing about Gor influenced me.. except for one chapter of one book in which some girl was taken, used, fucked and kept horny, because I can relate to that.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 8:57:22 PM

Nakhla

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I can't say I ever felt welcome or attracted to Gor, as it seemed on principle almost entirely focused around heterosexual relationships. As far as I can tell ( I'm not the expert here ) there are no gay Goreans. ( Bi, yes, but not gay - if there are, feel free to exit the woodwork so I can hear your perspective. )

So much Gorean conversation was along male-dom, fem-sub lines that I never felt I had anything to contribute or found much that was applicable to the relationships I found myself in.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 9:00:02 PM

littlewonder

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Has not nor ever affected me in any way. Does not appeal to me one way or the other. I'm indifferent to gor and never really crosses my mind.

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RE: D/s M/s structure, continuity, oops... Gor - 2/15/2014 10:55:19 PM

FrostedFlake

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My favorite was Typesetters of Gor. Unwashed nameless drones leading an almost insect like existence in vast, poorly lit dormitories under the monotonous gaze and violent justice of the Editors, perhaps the greatest of the tyrants of Gor. Though the Patent Attorneys of Gor are pretty fearsome, too. If you meet one, try not to make eye contact. They figure if you can't see them, they can't see you. Or so the explanation goes.

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