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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 3:40:40 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Put yourself in Davis' parents' shoes.


The victim's mother wrote this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/20/stand-your-ground-michael-dunn-jordan-davis-column/5655819/

**** While I understand the racial significance of this discussion, I believe the blame lies with the culture that emboldened Dunn to pull a loaded gun from his glove compartment and a law that encourages unnecessary violence. Florida's "stand your ground" law is the reason my son is dead. ****


**** People ask me what they can do to honor Jordan's memory. The answer is simple: They can join me and other moms who are calling on Florida and 25 other states to repeal "stand your ground" laws. There is a difference between feeling threatened and being in a life-threatening situation. That distinction should be clear under the law. In many states, it isn't. ****


Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ?

It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 3:43:29 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie




So what?

The law said he wasn't guilty.

Get over it.

Erm no...
But thanks for coming in ten pages after the first post to denigrate it with misunderstanding..
Most excellent effort



It's a gift.

You would think Dunn walked from some of the reactions here.
Instead he will spend the rest of his life in prison even if they don't retry the murder charge.

That is your poor perception, as I was the first to say he deserves his 60 years, way back in post one
your observational point is bullshit.... especially when Lookie was talking about me to me......



So, did the guy walk, or is he going to jail?

He goes away for at least 60 years for 3 counts of attempted murder and for shooting into a car.
And they will retry him for murder.
Hung jury, not acquittal.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 3:47:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Put yourself in Davis' parents' shoes.


The victim's mother wrote this:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/20/stand-your-ground-michael-dunn-jordan-davis-column/5655819/

**** While I understand the racial significance of this discussion, I believe the blame lies with the culture that emboldened Dunn to pull a loaded gun from his glove compartment and a law that encourages unnecessary violence. Florida's "stand your ground" law is the reason my son is dead. ****


**** People ask me what they can do to honor Jordan's memory. The answer is simple: They can join me and other moms who are calling on Florida and 25 other states to repeal "stand your ground" laws. There is a difference between feeling threatened and being in a life-threatening situation. That distinction should be clear under the law. In many states, it isn't. ****


Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ?

It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 3:48:54 PM   
cloudboy


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I think she makes a valid distinction. Also, why can't there be be a duty to retreat if that is an available an option. If one can safely walk away from a confrontation, that should be the first option exercised.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:02:44 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I think she makes a valid distinction. Also, why can't there be be a duty to retreat if that is an available an option. If one can safely walk away from a confrontation, that should be the first option exercised.

So the total burden of proof should be on the guy who is defending himself.
How do you prove you retreated enough?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/21/2014 4:09:29 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:07:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:11:45 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.


We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:16:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.


We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors?

Almost clever
In case you are unaware of it there is a difference between a jury and a prosecutor.
With the burden being on the defendant it is guilty until proven innocent turning the legal system on it's head.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:23:55 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ?

It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.


No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:34:24 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ?

It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.


No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types.



So, I'm not talking about popcorn throwers and loud music players in my post.


< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 2/21/2014 4:37:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:36:25 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.



Exactly, prosecutors trying to put a feather in their hat every time a gun was used justifiably.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:36:42 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Why can't SYG be modified to actually being a threat instead of a feeling ?

It's not right to prosecute someone who used deadly force if it was indeed justified.


No, whats not right is to murder someone who isnt any sort of threat. You know, popcorn throwers or loud music players, those murderous types.



So, I'm talking about popcorn throwers and loud music players in my post.


Of course not but they always go to the worst case to prove a point.
Usually a case where SYG didn't get someone off like the Dunn case.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:37:23 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:41:50 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.


We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors?


It didn't always work just fine. Sometimes people got, and still get prosecuted for anything involving a gun by some overzealous anti gun pompas asshole Mike Nifong type.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:45:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why not return to common law self defense that worked for 400 years?


Because it didn't.
We got a generation of prosecutors who made the guy defending himself prove his
innocence.


We had 400 years of the burden being on the person claiming self defense and it worked just fine. And weren't you just arguing that it wasn't the laws fault if the jury went wrong? Then how can you blame the law for the prosecutors?


It didn't always work just fine. Sometimes people got, and still get prosecuted for anything involving a gun by some overzealous anti gun pompas asshole Mike Nifong type.

Or that MD prosecutor who is going after a guy because at 1 am he answered the door with a gun and when
attacked didn't call 911 before defending himself.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:46:40 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there.


Nobody is doing that. You're just pulling shit out of your ass because none of the strawman crap you're blathering on about address anything we actually said.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:46:55 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 4:47:35 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:51:25 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		OOPs, sorry Polite, I didn't consider the smilie emoticon in your post. I guess you were just kidding.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:51:29 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases.

Butch

No
First off it would not make the problems go away.
For example if someone tries to mug you when you try to get away you are dead.
Your question is a lets compromise and do it my way one.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/21/2014 4:54:13 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:53:33 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases.

Butch


Or couldn't there be a requirement that there is an actual threat instead of a perceived one.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 220
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