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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:53:46 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Bull...how can you possibly know that. You will have just as good a chance getting your gun out running away as trying to confront a mugger who has the drop on you

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 4:55:35 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:57:22 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Wouldn't it be simple to make one change to the law and all these problems will go away. Just say that before deadly force can be used an attempt must be made to flee the confrontation.... In all cases.

Butch


Or couldn't there be a requirement that there is an actual threat instead of a perceived one.


I wouldn't have a major problem with that.
What is almost always ignored in these conversations is that the laws say if a reasonable person would see
a threat.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 4:59:43 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there.


Nobody is doing that. You're just pulling shit out of your ass because none of the strawman crap you're blathering on about address anything we actually said.


Bullshit....... You guys love to blame the dead guy, no matter what the reason was. There is clearly NO excuse to shoot anyone over popcorn, loud music, egg throwing or eating skittles.

Just for your info, here in the UK you can kill in self defence, everyone here knows that and also knows you may have to justify why in court. You wont get people here pissing and moaning about a prosecutor doing his job in such situations.

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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:00:03 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bull...how can you possibly know that. You will have just as good a chance getting your gun out running away as trying to confront a mugger who has the drop on you

No you don't particularly since by your rules you would have to try to run away before deploying your weapon.
During that time he shoots you.
You want to see to it the bad guy always has an even greater advantage than he would normally have.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:02:02 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bull...how can you possibly know that. You will have just as good a chance getting your gun out running away as trying to confront a mugger who has the drop on you

No you don't particularly since by your rules you would have to try to run away before deploying your weapon.
During that time he shoots you.
You want to see to it the bad guy always has an even greater advantage than he would normally have.


Fucking laughable, given what Butch actually posted.

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:04:12 PM   
KYsissy


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Status: offline 		http://www.wdrb.com/story/24776616/raw-video-woman-allegedly-pulls-gun-in-dinos-food-mart

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but what do you do in this situation? What if you have a CCW permit and are packing in this store, at this moment? This ended well but she coule have just started pulling the trigger.

It is easy to armchair quarterback these situations, it is an entirely different animal when you are in them.

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(in reply to lovmuffin)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:09:32 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

http://www.wdrb.com/story/24776616/raw-video-woman-allegedly-pulls-gun-in-dinos-food-mart

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but what do you do in this situation? What if you have a CCW permit and are packing in this store, at this moment? This ended well but she coule have just started pulling the trigger.

It is easy to armchair quarterback these situations, it is an entirely different animal when you are in them.

I would try to get behind her at make it clear that violence was not her best choice.
By KSsubs rules that would make me the bad guy.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/21/2014 5:10:45 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to KYsissy)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:09:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		How in the hell are you going to get your popgun out if he has a gun on you... OH OH wait...I have to get my gun out... ok now don't shoot... almost... I know I have it here somewhere... behind my back.... no... under my coat....no... oh yea here it is... in my pocket... OK I got your ass now because I'm superman and can fly around the world in the time it takes you to blink....now drop you gun and hands up crook!!!!!

How ridiculous

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:15:35 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Your excusing murder over trivial matters........ nothing new there.


Nobody is doing that. You're just pulling shit out of your ass because none of the strawman crap you're blathering on about address anything we actually said.


Bullshit....... You guys love to blame the dead guy, no matter what the reason was. There is clearly NO excuse to shoot anyone over popcorn, loud music, egg throwing or eating skittles.

Just for your info, here in the UK you can kill in self defence, everyone here knows that and also knows you may have to justify why in court. You wont get people here pissing and moaning about a prosecutor doing his job in such situations.


Pulling more shit out-a-yer ass I see. Where has anyone blamed the dead guy for playing loud music or throwing popcorn ? Show me Mr expert. Show me where someone was killed because they were eating skittles.

And in case you never noticed, I haven't criticized the way you do things in the UK.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:16:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How in the hell are you going to get your popgun out if he has a gun on you... OH OH wait...I have to get my gun out... ok now don't shoot... almost... I know I have it here somewhere... behind my back.... no... under my coat....no... oh yea here it is... in my pocket... OK I got your ass now because I'm superman and can fly around the world in the time it takes you to blink....now drop you gun and hands up crook!!!!!

How ridiculous

Butch

And yet only half as ridiculous as trying to run from him and thinking you always have the option of fighting back
if he starts shooting at you.
Tactical situation would determine fight or co operation, if he has a knife I can shoot him if he has a ball
and chain he can outrun me. No contrary to what you want to believe I do not advocate drawing when
staring down the barrel of a gun.
You want me to retreat from an intruder in my home?
That is part of all cases?
Of course he will give you a time out to get away cause after all he is a basically good guy
who is desperate and misunderstood.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/21/2014 5:18:12 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:19:23 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Don't run... say here have my wallet... you are alive and so is he

Turn that radio down... man reaches for what looks like gun... run like hell and call cops

Common anti-cowboy sense

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 5:20:46 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:20:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Don't run... say here have my wallet... you are alive and so is he

So in your perfect world the bad guys own the streets.
They need more helpers like you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:22:14 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Nope... I'll let the police do their work...my life ... your life... the crooks life... is not worth a few bucks or a little pride

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:32:54 PM   
cloudboy


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I just wanted to add that I'm impressed the mother has made this into a public policy discussion and is seeking a solution to help everyone living in a SYG state.

(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:38:51 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Nope... I'll let the police do their work...my life ... your life... the crooks life... is not worth a few bucks or a little pride

Do you know what the odds are of the police ever catching him?
And you haven't answered my question about making me retreat in my home when faced with and intruder.
It's not a matter of pride.
Tell him my wallet isn't worth dying over he made the choice to bring it to that, not me.
I wouldn't shoot him for wanting my wallet but for being willing to kill me to get it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:40:55 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KYsissy

http://www.wdrb.com/story/24776616/raw-video-woman-allegedly-pulls-gun-in-dinos-food-mart

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but what do you do in this situation? What if you have a CCW permit and are packing in this store, at this moment? This ended well but she coule have just started pulling the trigger.

It is easy to armchair quarterback these situations, it is an entirely different animal when you are in them.


It really all depends on a variety of factors. I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for shooting the crazy lady. I would try to remove myself from the immediate area and I certainly wouldn't try to draw if her attention is on me. I would want to play hero and have to answer questions later though if my kids, wife, mom ect were in the store I might try to make a move when her gun points or attention focuses somewhere else. And no, I don't think it's off topic.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to KYsissy)
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RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:47:53 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		There are different laws that cover in your home... and even then an attempt should be made to retreat. If given the choice most sane people will retreat rather than kill.

If people knew that in the SYG law an attempt must be made to retreat before deadly force situations like this thread and the Zimmerman situation... may not have taken place.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/21/2014 5:49:12 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:53:31 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There are different laws that cover in your home... and even then an attempt should be made to retreat. If given the choice most sane people will retreat rather than kill.

If people knew that in the SYG law an attempt must be made to retreat before deadly force situations like this thread and the Zimmerman situation may not have taken place.

Butch

Since all SYG says is that you don't have to repeat you clearly think I am stupid enough to not see that this is just a veiled attempt to repeal them.
And no when someone breaks into your house he has already proven he will do whatever it takes to get what he wants.
Of course you would help him load his truck hope he doesn't kill you so you can't testify and then let the police
do their job because that is what any reasonable person would do.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 5:55:03 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		If you are saying can I envision a situation where retreat is impossible... yes I can... but the Zimmerman and this case were not one of those situations...In any court if YOU can prove you could not retreat than it would be a simple self defense case.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Updated....Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/21/2014 6:00:02 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If you are saying can I envision a situation where retreat is impossible... yes I can... but the Zimmerman and this case were not one of those situations...In any court if YOU can prove you could not retreat than it would be a simple self defense case.


I can't see how Zimmerman could retreated but by all means just use your imagination and make something up.

If you're being charged with something than you don't have to prove anything.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 240
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