RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (Full Version)

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Toysinbabeland -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/19/2014 9:59:04 PM)

Dear Domina,
My only question is:
Would you consider posting etiquette to be useful?






RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 7:25:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OvidInDallas
I have a couple of questions for you to answer from your years of real lifestyle experience: Do you expect everyone you interact with to accept being called whores and to show gratitude for your conversation? Do you believe that consent is a critical part of D/s? Is humiliation and formalized structures of address something that is part of the D/s dynamic? By calling people whores and demanding a specific way of addressing you, are you not imposing the D/s framework on people who have not consented to be treated that way? Is this how you interact with people during your years of public play experience or do you only expect this behavior on the internet? If you only expect it on the internet aren't you participating in the creation of a fantasy construct of F/m relationships that is actively harmful to those who share your lifestyle?

If those are too many questions then here is one simple one: Do people deserve to be treated with respect and civility regardless of if they identify as dominant, submissive, switch, or anything else?

Serious post, so I'll respond to it with a serious post of my own. I think it's real that internet BDSM interactions are different from the BDSM interactions you seem to have in your personal experience.

Since the beginning of Old Guard BDSM, social interactions have been geared to support what is best for the (leaders of the) group. New members of Old Guard organizations had to start at the bottom, as a boy, before they could work up to a top, so that there would be an ongoing supply of fresh holes for the group leadership. Once BDSM became hetero-ized, clubs made money catering to stable relationships, including people in stable relationships who would sometimes swing. So the average age at BDSM gatherings was "middle-age," and it was more a place for couples to play and learn techniques that for "young kids" to pick up kinky dates.

Now the money is shifting again, in two ways: online, and real-world-mainstream a la 50 Shades. So people are going online for kicks, and real-world club owners and event organizers are trying to cash in on the mainstream acceptance of bondage and floggers. Christian Grey is a male kitten with a whip, and he's sexy. There's also the appearance of money to be made online, through financial domination and Niteflirt-type activity, so open-minded women trying to make some extra money are trying it out. In 10 years, the US will be a bit the way Japan is now: it's no longer such a big deal in Japan to have been in a porn movie or two. You can still have a mainstreamish career, because it's become so common. Same with the US -- oh yeah, I had a phone sex profile when I was 23, just like every other woman my age.

So, which lifestyle are you talking about? Because, like it or not, the one you cut your teeth in has changed, and is perhaps gone forever.



OvidInDallas -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 1:40:35 PM)

Thank you for the serious reply. If I am misunderstanding your argument then forgive me but I think you are saying that times are changing so just accept people like the original poster and their harmful fantasy outlook. I have to vehemently disagree on several fronts. If you aren't saying that it should just be accepted then I'm not sure what your point is other than to inform me of something that I am clearly aware of. If that was your purpose then yes, I am aware. Long rambling answer to follow, if you don't care to read my thrown together thoughts then skip to the TLDR at the bottom.

Allow me to frame my viewpoint in a clearer manner rather than in a series of leading questions for the sex worker I was addressing: the F/m lifestyle is suffering as a result of the continued objectification of Dommes as fetish delivery vehicles and as a result of the seriously destructive stereotype of male subs as "worms" who don't need to give consent for anything because they should be grateful for any attention a Domme (or a female in general) chooses to give to them. This is hateful to dominant women and hateful to men who do not conform to hetero-normative gender roles and creates a toxic, abusive atmosphere in general.

First, the changes you describe aren't exactly a new thing because of Fifty Shades or the Internet. It is just a continuation of harmful mainstream social constructs spreading into another arena. The idea of women as objects of male satisfaction and terror of men not being in a position of authority over the women in their lives is about as typical of mainstream culture as you can get. The idea that because this dynamic is increasingly prevalent in BDSM it should be accepted is just ridiculous. It is the duty of people who want to change these social constructs to confront them and people who advance them whether they do so consciously or unconsciously with their words and actions.

Second, the internet is not magically separate from real life. Most people's first interactions with BDSM are going to increasingly be on sites like this. When all that a new male sub sees is a frankly disgusting fantasy world of F/m that revolves around demeaning the concept of male submission and advancing ludicrous dreams then they will either accept that this is the type of submissive that they need to be or they will think "this isn't what I want, I guess I'm not a 'real' submissive" and give up on a part of themselves that can be beautiful. How many times have you seen a male sub show up at an event and start going from woman to woman treating them like they do on the internet. This is where that behavior can be corrected and they can be given a more realistic idea of what male submission can be (in all its different forms). I personally think that is a worthy goal to work towards even if it will be hard when facing the legion of sex workers.

Finally, I've talked to a decent number of female dominants in real life and on the internet. While I am not claiming to have a scientific sample size from which to draw conclusions, it seems like most of them aren't interested in many of the fantasies of the stereotypical worm sub. How many dominant females are turned away by this idea that dominant females are sex objects that exist to gratify the sexual fantasies of male "submissives"? Confronting those who promote this fantasy (which I would note many have done in this thread) helps to show those female dominants that their is a realistic and healthy lifestyle that they can be part of that doesn't involve taking men's money to talk dirty to them while the man wears a dress (unless that is what they like).

If you struggled through that then thanks for reading!

TLDR: My lifestyle is one where people are treated with respect and civility regardless of gender, orientation, or kink unless they consent otherwise or show that they will not treat others with respect and civility. If the lifestyle stops being that then I'll be sad and stop being part of it.



Rawni -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 1:50:09 PM)

Wow! [sm=yourock.gif]

Who is this guy and where did he come from?

I think I like him! [;)]



RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:02:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OvidInDallas
Thank you for the serious reply. If I am misunderstanding your argument then forgive me but I think you are saying that times are changing so just accept people like the original poster and their harmful fantasy outlook.

Nice post. But -- I am saying, to quote the poet, "Be angry at the sun for setting" if this bothers you. As the economy in the US continues to worsen, there will be more and more women (and men) turning to sex work in an attempt to make some money. And they serve a higher purpose, believe it or not. The vast majority of men with submissive profiles on this site do not have much in the way of relationship skills, and are more looking to scratch an itch than to get married to a woman who would (gasp) actually tell them what to do. So people like the OP perform a valuable service: they siphon off some of the pressure from dominant and switch women who are looking for relationships where the lady is spanking ass at least some of the time.

Of note, the OP wasn't asking anyone to engage in anything non-consensual. I didn't see anything wrong with her post, except that she was offending the sensibilities of some people who consider this message board their cyber home away from home.

I largely agree with your Second-Wave Feminism analysis of female-led relationships, but only because what you say is true about every relationship between men and women (statistically speaking), not just F/m ones.

Finally, the internet really is a bit magically divorced from real life. Very few people are the same online as they are offline -- and I'm not just talking about people who are actively fakes. I think it's a real skill to be the same in both worlds, one not many people possess. You'll probably do well here, because you have above-average verbal skills, but there are lots of men and women who are plenty datable in real life who can't catch a break on the kinky internet because they can't type as well as they can act.

See you around, I'm sure.



Rawni -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:10:22 PM)

Because someone provides a viable service to some... and that viable service has a need out there, doesn't mean that those that find offense with how some of it is done, is being overly sensitive if they respond negatively to it.

When I see someone push someone around in person... a crowd could be gathered doing nothing, but you can bet somebody's sweet ass, I am going to find out what is going on and try to stop it. Just the same if someone comes in here, not with a typical post, but with an advertisement in the wrong area, calling people names. I will call a spade a spade, even if I am the only one that thinks its a spade and clearly here... I wasn't the only one.

Go to professional or other areas of the forum that play party to these types of things. Don't force your viable kink upon other members by breaking tos and calling them names. Pretty simple actually.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:17:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawni
Don't force your viable kink upon other members by breaking tos and calling them names. Pretty simple actually.

Heh. I would *love* to live in a world where "forcing kink" on someone meant, "giving them the option to read a post on a message board."

I'm also unclear how the OP breaks TOS. If anything, doesn't condemning OP's "you're whores" kink come closer to violating TOS?

I'm not in a hurry to defend the OP. Maybe she's a flaming bitch in real life -- I have no idea. But seriously. If she wants to start a podcast for all the male slutty slut sluts out there who want to subscribe, why not wish her the best of luck? No skin off your nose.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:23:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OvidInDallas

the F/m lifestyle is suffering as a result of the continued objectification of Dommes as fetish delivery vehicles and as a result of the seriously destructive stereotype of male subs as "worms" who don't need to give consent for anything because they should be grateful for any attention a Domme (or a female in general) chooses to give to them. This is hateful to dominant women and hateful to men who do not conform to hetero-normative gender roles and creates a toxic, abusive atmosphere in general.

First, the changes you describe aren't exactly a new thing because of Fifty Shades or the Internet. It is just a continuation of harmful mainstream social constructs spreading into another arena. The idea of women as objects of male satisfaction and terror of men not being in a position of authority over the women in their lives is about as typical of mainstream culture as you can get. The idea that because this dynamic is increasingly prevalent in BDSM it should be accepted is just ridiculous. It is the duty of people who want to change these social constructs to confront them and people who advance them whether they do so consciously or unconsciously with their words and actions.

Second, the internet is not magically separate from real life. Most people's first interactions with BDSM are going to increasingly be on sites like this. When all that a new male sub sees is a frankly disgusting fantasy world of F/m that revolves around demeaning the concept of male submission and advancing ludicrous dreams then they will either accept that this is the type of submissive that they need to be or they will think "this isn't what I want, I guess I'm not a 'real' submissive" and give up on a part of themselves that can be beautiful. How many times have you seen a male sub show up at an event and start going from woman to woman treating them like they do on the internet. This is where that behavior can be corrected and they can be given a more realistic idea of what male submission can be (in all its different forms). I personally think that is a worthy goal to work towards even if it will be hard when facing the legion of sex workers.

Finally, I've talked to a decent number of female dominants in real life and on the internet. While I am not claiming to have a scientific sample size from which to draw conclusions, it seems like most of them aren't interested in many of the fantasies of the stereotypical worm sub. How many dominant females are turned away by this idea that dominant females are sex objects that exist to gratify the sexual fantasies of male "submissives"? Confronting those who promote this fantasy (which I would note many have done in this thread) helps to show those female dominants that their is a realistic and healthy lifestyle that they can be part of that doesn't involve taking men's money to talk dirty to them while the man wears a dress (unless that is what they like).


QFT.

Select portions highlighted for relevance and applicability to all male-female relationships, regardless of who is on which side of the kneel.

Bless you. I think I love you.

(Kidding...mostly.) [:D]



Rawni -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:27:56 PM)

Calling a group of submissives whores would be like calling a group of ****** (My stars) what they are called by many. What if a male kinky in all his ways, came in and called a bunch of submissive women whores? Who would dine on that? Yet, it is okay in an ad... not an innocent post offering services, which can still be an ad... its okay... because she is calling most likely... SISSY's whores. Which brings up a whole bit of attitude in me.

Has anyone noticed that sissy's often have gender issues and can be preyed upon because of these issues and the issues of life that they must contend with, with many of them subjecting themselves to awful things normally unacceptable because they want to be accepted and loved? Where is Stella?

Take the ad's and offerings to professional or something. Why mask an ad as an offering of services and seeking of those that might need them? That may not break tos... but her profile does... and an ad on the forums... is only allowed in a couple of places, by guidelines I didn't create.



VideoAdminChi -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:31:01 PM)

quote:

(Whore is my pet name for my submissives. If you identify with it... we'll get along.)


Since the vast majority of members who will read your posts on the discussion board are not your submissives, please refrain from using "whore."



VideoAdminChi -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:37:33 PM)

quote:

I wanted to out an obvious solicitor on the thread for emailing me offering to pay me $6k-$10k a month because they "love my look blah blah", but didn't know if it was against TOS and can't be arsed to figured out what section of the forum such a thing would fly (just didn't matter that much). "Yes pwease, pay me monies for I am a poor and needy Domme with no college education or career of her own", LOL.


Outing is never acceptable. As long as you do not name names, you may start a thread on this in Off Topic. You may report Scammers using the automated system. See http://www.collarme.com/personals/scammers.htm



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:40:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Of note, the OP wasn't asking anyone to engage in anything non-consensual. I didn't see anything wrong with her post, except that she was offending the sensibilities of some people who consider this message board their cyber home away from home.


No. Just no.

What she was asking for was for someone to work for free while she makes a profit. Or, if they're particularly worthy, than can pay her for the privilege of working for her. So they might or might not get anything of value out of this arrangement. The only one who is definitely getting something out of the deal is her. So don't pretend she's doing dominant women a favor because I call bullshit on that notion.

Now I have no issues with findoms or NiteFlirt/cam girls. But I do take exception to laziness and the OP was lazy. If she can make a buck by using her voice or her body and her acting abilities, go for it. But she can bloody well keep her advertising in the appropriate section(s) or she can pony up a contract to split the money she makes with the person(s) providing her with free content.

Either way, the TOS states:

quote:

You may not use the Website to advertise products or services, nor may You use the Website in order to solicit products or services, unless otherwise permitted by collarchat.com.


So yes, she did violate the TOS by posting her solicitation in a section that was not designated for that purpose and by failing to comply with the guidelines for those sections that are designated for advertising.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:41:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rawni

Calling a group of submissives whores would be like calling a group of ****** (My stars) what they are called by many. What if a male kinky in all his ways, came in and called a bunch of submissive women whores? Who would dine on that? Yet, it is okay in an ad... not an innocent post offering services, which can still be an ad... its okay... because she is calling most likely... SISSY's whores. Which brings up a whole bit of attitude in me.

Has anyone noticed that sissy's often have gender issues and can be preyed upon because of these issues and the issues of life that they must contend with, with many of them subjecting themselves to awful things normally unacceptable because they want to be accepted and loved? Where is Stella?

Take the ad's and offerings to professional or something. Why mask an ad as an offering of services and seeking of those that might need them? That may not break tos... but her profile does... and an ad on the forums... is only allowed in a couple of places, by guidelines I didn't create.

The other side of your comment about sissies is that 95% of lifestyle femdoms are turned off by sisses, not so much because of the crossdressing, but because of the narcissism and hyperfocus on the fetish that male sissies tend to have. What's so wrong about a man finding some emotional connection with a sissy-accepting woman, even if he has to pay for it? Men pay for sex. Hell, men already pay for companionship -- it's called dating, ha. So why not have an additional service available for the narcissistic and emotionally broken guys?

I just don't see the big moral dilemma here. I "pay for it" all the time. Except what I pay for is fancy meals, or tickets to an event she's never been to before, stuff like that. But that isn't any more financially "pure" sexually than subscribing to a webcam service online. It's just more accepted by society.



mnottertail -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:43:26 PM)

If someone wants to pay me $6-$10K a month to stare longingly at me, fuck that goddamn TOS.

Pay ME!!!!! 



RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:45:39 PM)

In response to Sylvere and others: didn't a mod move the post here in the first place? This whole thing seems like a tempest in a teapot, combined with picking on a newb because she didn't know where or how to post correctly. And the mods put the post here instead of Prof Svcs, so you can hardly blame the OP for that.

I doubt you'll suddenly see the light and agree with me, but you're still wrong.[;)]



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 2:49:41 PM)

Nope, you're the one who's wrong. She originally posted in AAMistress. Still in violation. [8D]

I'm going to guess the thread was moved here because it didn't meet the guidelines for the advertising sections, but I could be wrong.



VideoAdminChi -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 3:01:00 PM)

It certainly does not meet the guidelines for Professional Services.



Rawni -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 3:03:56 PM)

RedMagic,

I really have to get a couple chapters of a book finished today, so I can't answer at the moment, but I will later or tomorrow if I can. Not avoiding this, but I really need to get some work done.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 3:15:29 PM)

Yay the book!

I find it humorous that we had a multi-page thread on how to be nicer to new posters, and started a message board mentorship program, and this is the result here. Did any of the mentors message the OP? None of my business and I don't expect an answer. But commercial enterprises are a fact of life, and just because someone asks for some money for some things doesn't mean they have nothing to contribute.

All that said, it sounds as though the OP was here at least once before. Maybe in her last iteration, she was a man. I have no idea. So I'm not trying to defend her, per se. But as a general principle, I don't see any value to riding pros and semi-pros out of town on a rail.



FieryOpal -> RE: Ask Domina: seeking submissions (2/20/2014 11:52:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OvidInDallas
<snip>
the F/m lifestyle is suffering as a result of the continued objectification of Dommes as fetish delivery vehicles and as a result of the seriously destructive stereotype of male subs as "worms" who don't need to give consent for anything because they should be grateful for any attention a Domme (or a female in general) chooses to give to them. This is hateful to dominant women and hateful to men who do not conform to hetero-normative gender roles and creates a toxic, abusive atmosphere in general.

.... When all that a new male sub sees is a frankly disgusting fantasy world of F/m that revolves around demeaning the concept of male submission and advancing ludicrous dreams then they will either accept that this is the type of submissive that they need to be or they will think "this isn't what I want, I guess I'm not a 'real' submissive" and give up on a part of themselves that can be beautiful.... I personally think that is a worthy goal to work towards [i.e., being true to oneself] even if it will be hard when facing the legion of sex workers.

... it seems like most [Dommes] aren't interested in many of the fantasies of the stereotypical worm sub. How many dominant females are turned away by this idea that dominant females are sex objects that exist to gratify the sexual fantasies of male "submissives"? Confronting those who promote this fantasy (which I would note many have done in this thread) helps to show those female dominants that their is a realistic and healthy lifestyle that they can be part of that doesn't involve taking men's money to talk dirty to them while the man wears a dress (unless that is what they like).
<snip>
[Brackets mine]

It should also be noted that there are many women who get exposed to disturbing elements contained in FemDom porn who may reject their own dominant inclinations in an effort to NOT be like some Evil Sadistic Bitch they've seen portrayed, or to not be perceived as a money-hungry, man-hating bitch surrounded by a bunch of simpering mindless fools. There is nothing remotely attractive about this sort of behavior for those of us who enjoy our natural femininity (and feminine power) and want our men to be, well, men without denouncing their natural masculinity. There was a time in my own life (mainly 20's) when I struggled with this seemingly paradoxical vision of what I knew I wanted. I'm straight and I had no desire to feminize a man in order for him to be my submissive partner.

Furthermore, it's bad enough that there are so many men out there who erroneously assume that if they spring for dinner or some other dating activity, then they have a false entitlement to self-gratification and objectify women further in the process. The All Women Are Just "Gold-Diggers" mentality and can therefore be bought for a price. I'll tell you what, I've met more male gold-diggers looking for a free ride than any females I've ever known.

Throwing in BDSM and calling it a kink doesn't make it any less exploitative as the commercialized porn that fuels it, and only reinforces largely false stereotypes which are damaging to both Dominant females and submissive males in equal measure.



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