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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/22/2014 8:57:39 PM

MasterCaneman

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This is a fascinating thread. It has to be one of the few times I've ever read things about a hot-button subject that 'slave contracts' are where there are practical reasons presented for them. I like the "Headspace Tool Box" comment. I've never done anything like this at any level, and have one seen one in real-life (insanely draconian, which is why the girl broke up with him). There are some good reasonings for having one, it seems.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/22/2014 9:56:02 PM

FrostedFlake

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If you think it's interesting, then it is. If you don't, then it isn't.

Same thing with nearly everything else.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/24/2014 8:19:12 PM

njlauren

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A contract can be a lot of things. For some it is kind of a fantasy thing brought to life, it is hot to them to put it into words in black and white. For others, it is a tool, that can get the people into the right headspace, or gives them guidelines and such. More importantly, it kind of forces people to think about the relationship and give it structure and bounds, which for some people may be difficult 'winging it'.

The only weight it holds is in the people's hearts and minds, no such contract is enforceable in most countries (there may be countries where self imposed slavery is legal, but I doubt it is easy to find), it simply formalizes a D/s between the people involved.

Do you need a contract to have some sort of D/s, M/s relationship? Nope. Is it a good idea? To me, it doesn't hurt to sit down and think about what both people want, and I kind of like how with formal contracts people tend to also specify rules for when they can talk about the relationship outside of their roles, or sets a new negotiation period for the next contract. But people can do that without a formal contract, it really depends on how well they communicate. Where contracts break down IMO is when someone starts player lawyer, Philadelphia or otherwise, the sub who says "but the contract doesn't say that" in arguing something they don't want to do, or the M or D who uses some sort of strict interpretation to punish the sub or something (yeah, it is much like the never ending arguments over the constitution)..you get the idea....

As others have said, if it is attractive to the people involved, go for it, and there is merit to using it, but like any tool, depends on the user, too.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 9:25:56 AM

FeetKing

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At first my Domme was threatening to expose me with the contract. Now with the contract (though not real) it is very real to her and our BDSM lifestyle. Punishment is severe and it's used as a good guideline in what she wants and expects from me

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 9:40:12 AM

FieryOpal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FeetKing

At first my Domme was threatening to expose me with the contract. Now with the contract (though not real) it is very real to her and our BDSM lifestyle. Punishment is severe and it's used as a good guideline in what she wants and expects from me

May I ask you whether you are in a consensual blackmail dynamic with your Mistress? Let me frame it another way: Do you get a kick out of her being able to hang this contract over your head? Because if you don't, then she has violated your trust.

Now if you enjoy being treated this way, that's between the two of you; just be aware of what you're going along with, and that abiding by the terms of your contract works in both directions. She cannot arbitrarily use its existence to coerce you without your full, informed consent.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 10:23:20 AM

FriendlyMuppet

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For me, a contract has usually served as a great reminder of what we've agreed upon in such a relationship. It also helps to understand if the other person might not take the relationship as serious as you might. In one circumstance, I was courted by a woman who was gung ho on getting me to sign a contract with her. After giving in (and yes, it was one of those weird apprehensive types of relationships), she no longer seemed all that interested in the relationship because she got what she wanted (the slave to sign the contract). After that, it was kind of a let down for her because she had nothing further she was anxious about achieving. It was the only contracted relationship I've been in where I was floored by the eventual outcome, as the relationship quickly went downhill from there.

In other contracted relationships, the contract has served as a great vehicle for both a reminder and just as a hot talisman that gets both partners excited. I remember one of my first mistresses reading over our contract a year or so after we signed it and then exclaiming: "I can do ANYTHING I want to do to do you" with a big wide grin on her face. That had ALWAYS been the case, but just reading it in the contract we signed over a year before STILL got her excited.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 1:04:10 PM

GoddessBlueKura

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Just get him a tattoo. Can't go walking away with that reminder plastered on his bum. hehe

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 1:12:45 PM

captive4ever

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As far as I am concerned it is good for both parties, especially for the slave so they know what their obligations are, what they agreed to at the beginning. It can be a salutary reminder to a slave of just how its Owner is in control when He/She reminds the slave of a point by reading out something it has signed agreement to in a contract. Of course there is no legal standing, but a slave can be made to fully understand its position, and perhaps even more importantly its duty to its Owner.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 1:24:56 PM

LadyConstanze

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To be serious for a moment, such a contract is more of a reminder, in case there are problems, the contract can be taken out looked over...

They don't work for everybody, but again, if you plan to break the rules, why enter the relationship?

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/27/2014 5:54:19 PM

OvidInDallas

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If you are going to do a slave contract be careful about how it is written. They can't be enforced in court but they can be used as evidence of violation of the TVPA and of other crimes if you are in America.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 12:20:17 AM

LadyConstanze

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If you want to go that route, then you should also never indulge in any corporal, because that's assault and technically you can't consent to assault

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 1:16:46 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OvidInDallas

If you are going to do a slave contract be careful about how it is written. They can't be enforced in court but they can be used as evidence of violation of the TVPA and of other crimes if you are in America.

Wuzzat? Something to do with the Tennessee Valley?!?!?

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 1:47:53 AM

DNSerror

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Here is an insightful commentary about the legal enforceability of contracts:

http://archives.newyorker.com/?i=1999-10-18#folio=256

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 7:08:38 AM

OvidInDallas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Wuzzat? Something to do with the Tennessee Valley?!?!?

Trafficking Victims Protection Act. In the BDSM case that went to the Supreme Court (2007 I think) the existence of a slave contract was one of the things they used to prove violation of the act. Basically it had no escape mechanism for the slave and the prosecution used that to prove that even if the woman entered into it consensually, she felt trapped afterwards because there was no way to break the contract. Even though it wasn't legally enforceable, the court and jury accepted the argument that the contract created an emotional trap that locked the woman in the relationship even after she no longer wanted to be in it. Also, details in the contract specified that the dominant was allowed to do things like cutting and scarification to the slave as punishment and the prosecution used expert witnesses to argue that this was outside the norm for a BDSM relationship. Edited to add: The dom in that case got 9 years in federal prison.

Basically, if you live in America, make sure your contracts have to be renewed yearly and have a clear clause that allows for it to be broken at any time by either party. Also, don't include specific details about punishments. If you don't care then don't worry about this advice. I'm just trying to give people a heads up. The law and alternate sexual lifestyles don't always play nice and it's worth being aware of the risks in my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
If you want to go that route, then you should also never indulge in any corporal, because that's assault and technically you can't consent to assault

That's not true, at least in America. Assault (the creation of apprehension of an imminent harmful or offensive contact) is specifically voided by consent as is battery (unlawful application of force to the victim's body) This comes up pretty regularly in baseball actually. When a fly ball heads into the stands the spectators can't sue because when they go to a baseball game they are consenting to the risk of a fly ball entering the stands and possibly hitting them. Same thing with consensual BDSM. The courts have found that someone consenting to be spanked/flogged/etc negates the existence of an assault or battery. To make a fairly accurate analogy, the courts treat assault and battery like rape. Consent determines if it was rape or sex.

However, just like with rape, consent can be withdrawn at any time. So if they consent to be flogged and then ask for it to stop and the dominant/top/ship's captain continues going then it becomes assault and battery. And then there's the added negligence torts that a pro-Domme can face.

< Message edited by OvidInDallas -- 2/28/2014 7:12:52 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 8:19:47 AM

LadyConstanze

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Then maybe you do want to look up some cases where people were arrested for consensual play, weren't even vanilla's in Boston driving around with bumper stickers saying "Wooden spoons are not deadly assault weapons!" You might want to look up that one, the cops busted a private play party and arrested and charged several people with assault with weapons.

http://www.nerve.com/content/paddleboro

There's boxing as well, which are all covered by the rules of sports, you won't find a lot of rules that cover alternative sexualities especially when it comes to spankings and whippings, as for the "added negligence" you think a pro Domme can face, I have to call BS. In the US a pro-Domme faces a lot of things and if they're out to get her, they can nail her... Strapon play - prostitution, enemas or needle play - practising medicine without a license, CBT - prostitution, depending from State to State a lot of other things, as I said, whippings, beatings etc. - technically you can't consent to being beaten, but hey, maybe you'd like to explain to a court that the rules of baseball should apply and a whip is just like a ball hitting somebody. A bunch of outdated laws everybody dances around and is on tiptoes...

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 8:39:39 AM

OvidInDallas

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On review you are correct. Though the case you cite was thrown out of court, other courts have consistently refused to accept consent as a defense. Not because you can't consent to the act, but because injury automatically waves consent. Thank you for causing me to look further into the issue. It's always nice to learn more. This was actually fascinating on the subject: https://ncsfreedom.org/key-programs/consent-counts/consent-counts/item/580-consent-and-bdsm-the-state-of-the-law.html

Regarding the "added negligence" thing. I am specifically referring to the heightened standards of negligence that a professional is held to under common law in America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_negligence_in_English_law
So if a client gets injured during play a pro-Domme is held to a higher standard than a non-pay for play dominant would be.

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RE: Slave Contract - what good is it - 2/28/2014 10:16:54 AM

LadyConstanze

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But truth to be told, a client would hardly ever sue, all the busts that happened were more or less political and when the cops move in, they want to make an arrest. Also Dominatrix isn't a profession in the US, most will actually put entertainer or something similar on their tax declaration (not that the IRS cares as long as they get their share), so I don't think it holds water. Now if the contract itself is invalid as consent can't be legally given to the activities, I don't really think it will matter, the "higher standard" would be a problem since there is no measuring stick, I mean if it's not possible to give consent, then that's that. And how would you measure it? Is a bruise already an injury? What if the client specifically asked for bruises?

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Post #: 37

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