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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 11:24:56 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		rand paul and john stossel have been making the "freedom" to discriminate argument for years.....


"Fox's Stossel Advocates Repealing Part of the Civil Rights Act"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhd_TP5rG0c

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 11:40:46 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

rand paul and john stossel have been making the "freedom" to discriminate argument for years.....


"Fox's Stossel Advocates Repealing Part of the Civil Rights Act"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhd_TP5rG0c



I understand this, and once more, I dont agree with the law, I dont think it should stand, and I think the supreme court should strike it down if it does get passed.

I am just trying to point out, that like it or not, there is a way the conservative court could allow this to stand.

Just like the anti gun lobby. Until the 2nd is rewritten or repealed, there is no way they are gonna get anything close to what they want. And laws that were passed banning ownership of guns and concealed guns in Chicago were struck down, the only ones that have stood are the California gun control laws, and there are non NRA gun rights groups that are planning once more to challenge those laws.

Since I developed and interest in the news, as I have said, I have seen SCOTUS uphold some pretty bonehead stuff, and strike down other laws that made sense.

I have seen challenges to the polygamy laws come damn close to being struck down, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Everyone thought that the law about campaign donations would be upheld, and we saw what happened. Now Corporations have the same rights as people... except when it comes to taxes.

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 3:04:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I also thought this was a rather creative argument from the Communications Director of the Center for Arizona Policy, which helped write the bill:

quote:


Baer said the legislation strengthened the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, and filled in the loopholes.

"Let's say that the Westboro Baptist Church went to a gay printer and asked them to print signs that say something offensive like God hates homosexuals. That printer should be able to say absolutely not. That goes against my religious beliefs to print that sign. Well, as a Christian, it goes against ‘my' religious beliefs to print that sign also," said Baer.


The thing is it is already completely legal to reject business because you don't want to print signs that you find hateful. It isn't legal to exclude people of a particular class.

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 5:05:21 PM   
Winterapple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

“The rights of every man are diminished when the rights of one man are threatened.” JFK

Like the right of free association? Why should any individual or group of individuals, no matter who they are, have the power to compel others to associate with them? Forcing people into close contact with others who are antagonistic to them seems a poof formula for achieving bliss and harmony.

K.






This is pretty much the KKK's argument. They've got a
list of biblical quotations and religious tenants to back
it up to.


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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 5:16:52 PM   
Winterapple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I don't have a problem with a business owner making the decision not to serve gays. In fact I think they should put a sign in their window stating that so I know to take my money elsewhere. I don't understand why someone would want to support a business that takes this stand, yet not only do they want to, they go to court for the right to do so. Sorry but I don't like giving my hard earned cash to bigots. While I think they have the right to feel the way they do for what ever reason, I also have the right to shop elsewhere. I am sure there is a gay friendly equivalent that would welcome the extra business.

And if there isn't? What about towns with one pharmacy? or some other service? Would you be so sanguine then?


There is that internet thingy...

So, what you would have is an underserved portion of the population. Know what the Market calls that? Opportunity

Some entrepreneur will see the opportunity and take advantage of it. This will also likely place economic pressure on the discriminating business, to change or fail.

Boy, that would surely suck if the Market were allowed to work...


NM



< Message edited by Winterapple -- 2/25/2014 5:18:22 PM >

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 5:27:14 PM   
Winterapple


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, the notion is asswipe, the mythical 'market'  does not work like that, never did, never will.

Why do people keep buying into that ignorant shit? Particularly when all of history demonstrates it is fucking fantasy?


That's a good question. Some people can see the man (the men)
behind the curtain clearly. Others will see him with education and
experience. Some people keep their eyes squeezed tight. And
some are born blind and are fated to remain so.


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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 5:48:13 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline


Do you feel it's necessary to celebrate a woman voting, each time a woman votes? Why not? Same thing.

[/quote]

I celebrate every time I vote. I don't think I've ever stepped into a
voting booth without thinking of how recently this right was granted
to women. I think about the people who fought the long, good fight
for women's sufferance. I think about the women around the world
who have no vote and are denied their basic human rights. I remind
myself to never take it for granted. Celebration is redeclaration.

You might as well argue why celebrate anything after the fact.
Why do Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter? The reason
has been established for believers. So, why bother with the carols
and the cantatas and the special masses? Just because its something
important to you, something you cherish, something you are thankful
to be able to do freely and with no repercussions is no reason to
celebrate. Is it?


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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/25/2014 11:46:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
Do you feel it's necessary to celebrate a woman voting, each time a woman votes? Why not? Same thing.

I celebrate every time I vote. I don't think I've ever stepped into a
voting booth without thinking of how recently this right was granted
to women. I think about the people who fought the long, good fight
for women's sufferance. I think about the women around the world
who have no vote and are denied their basic human rights. I remind
myself to never take it for granted. Celebration is redeclaration.

Personal celebration is much different from public celebration. Every election, there aren't celebrations over the rights that have been won for people of color and women, as it pertains to voting. Why?

You do realize, that the reason I don't think it should be celebrated, is because it shouldn't be anything newsworthy, right? A young lady being killed in a ME country over her belief that females should have the right to education is newsworthy. That someone is homosexual, isn't newsworthy. When women win the right to something they had previously been kept from because they were formerly considered "second class" people, is definitely newsworthy. Many years later? Not so much.

quote:

You might as well argue why celebrate anything after the fact.
Why do Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter? The reason
has been established for believers. So, why bother with the carols
and the cantatas and the special masses? Just because its something
important to you, something you cherish, something you are thankful
to be able to do freely and with no repercussions is no reason to
celebrate. Is it?


Religious celebrations are much different. Annually remembering an event is one thing. Celebrating the date a freedom has been won, is not the same as celebrating it every time that freedom is practiced.

Honestly, I think more people celebrate Christmas and Easter because the retail gods tells us to.


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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 8:52:09 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Two paragraphs particularly caught my eye in the CNN article to which the OP linked.

The Greater Phoenix Economic Council, in a letter to Brewer on Friday, urged the governor to veto Senate Bill 1062, saying the "legislation will likely have profound, negative effects on our business community for years to come."

"The legislation places businesses currently in Arizona, as well as those looking to locate here, in potentially damaging risk of litigation, and costly, needless legal disputes," council President Barry Broome wrote, adding that four unidentified companies have vowed to locate elsewhere if the legislation is signed.

Emphasis mine.

Isn't the GOP supposed to be the party of business and economic growth?

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 8:54:55 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

A friend who's been following this more carefully than I have told me that the bill would require companies that include gay folks in their antidiscrimination policies (such as Apple, she said) to allow employees to violate those policies. Anyone know if that's true?

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 11:17:03 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Anderson Demolishes Senator
Again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvYYU7ECM_k

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 12:52:29 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
Two paragraphs particularly caught my eye in the CNN article to which the OP linked.
The Greater Phoenix Economic Council, in a letter to Brewer on Friday, urged the governor to veto Senate Bill 1062, saying the "legislation will likely have profound, negative effects on our business community for years to come."
"The legislation places businesses currently in Arizona, as well as those looking to locate here, in potentially damaging risk of litigation, and costly, needless legal disputes," council President Barry Broome wrote, adding that four unidentified companies have vowed to locate elsewhere if the legislation is signed.
Emphasis mine.
Isn't the GOP supposed to be the party of business and economic growth?


Be careful now. Joether and Moonhead will be along soon to discredit the GPEC President Broome for lack of integrity, and you have taken the bait.

Actually, that's not likely to happen. When "unnamed" people/businesses are used in a way that supports their beliefs, I doubt the validity will be challenged.

Can you give any good reasons why a business would move out of an area if legislation allowing business more freedom is signed? I find that a bit odd. It's not like the legislation is going to force a business to actually do something, but lifts restraints already in place, so if the business wanted to act, it could. IMO, business should love it, especially if it's not one of those businesses that's actually going see any changes in practices. If one of my competitors decided to not serve left-handed people, that would only help my business. Hell, it makes it a bit easier for my Marketing Dept. to come up with slogans:
    Buy our product. We don't care which hand you use.


This legislation will identify people and businesses. It won't make anyone or anything bigoted. It won't force anyone or anything to discriminate. It will allow people and businesses to identify themselves as bigoted, though. If that bigotry isn't acceptable, how is that going to hurt a business or businessperson that isn't bigoted?


< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 2/26/2014 12:53:02 PM >

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 1:12:36 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, horseshit. Plain and simple. The reason businesses would move from that shithole, Arizona is that .........nah, you aint going to ever get it. 

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 2:06:23 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

A friend who's been following this more carefully than I have told me that the bill would require companies that include gay folks in their antidiscrimination policies (such as Apple, she said) to allow employees to violate those policies. Anyone know if that's true?

The way the law is written yes. An employee could refuse to serve someone because of their "sincerely held" religious beliefs despite the employer's policy. And the employee would be protected by the law.

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 4:49:42 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline 		FR

Governor Brewer is speaking right now. She announced that she vetoed the bill.

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 2/26/2014 5:37:34 PM   
sloguy02246


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

If one of my competitors decided to not serve left-handed people, that would only help my business. Hell, it makes it a bit easier for my Marketing Dept. to come up with slogans:

    Buy our product. We don't care which hand you use.




That's a great advertising tag line for selling Astro-Glide.

< Message edited by sloguy02246 -- 2/26/2014 5:38:20 PM >

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 3/1/2014 7:11:36 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

FR

Governor Brewer is speaking right now. She announced that she vetoed the bill.



Well that's a sure fire way to kill this thread. How can anyone hate on the conservatives when one of their own stopped this. How dare she.

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RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 3/1/2014 7:15:39 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		why would the thread die, there are another five or six bills throughout the country that need action?


all republican


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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 3/1/2014 7:17:51 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

FR

Governor Brewer is speaking right now. She announced that she vetoed the bill.



Well that's a sure fire way to kill this thread. How can anyone hate on the conservatives when one of their own stopped this. How dare she.

Of course the fact remains that other religious right loons are doing the same thing in state legislatures all over the country and were instrumental in getting Uganda's law making homosexuality a crime punishable by life imprisonment passed so maybe you shouldn't be quite so fast to pat yourself on the back.

Why do you support people who hate you?

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The Conservatives in Arizona have a plan... - 3/1/2014 7:33:14 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

FR

Governor Brewer is speaking right now. She announced that she vetoed the bill.



Well that's a sure fire way to kill this thread. How can anyone hate on the conservatives when one of their own stopped this. How dare she.

Of course the fact remains that other religious right loons are doing the same thing in state legislatures all over the country and were instrumental in getting Uganda's law making homosexuality a crime punishable by life imprisonment passed so maybe you shouldn't be quite so fast to pat yourself on the back.

Why do you support people who hate you?

When will some folks figure out that Republican =/= conservative. Republicans have become their own kind of loon and abandoned the conservative creed of 35 years ago.

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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