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Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 5:34:17 AM

pg4g

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Looking at the recent posts by some people, and at society's views as a whole, it seems clear there's a viewpoint that submissives and masochists are weak people, both men and women.

Where do you think this viewpoint comes from? Do you think they're weak? Or what do you think being submissive or masochistic says about a person? Just an orientation, like sexual persuasion? And does that viewpoint spoil a lot of people from accepting their tendencies?

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 5:44:13 AM

LadyConstanze

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I think you will find strong and weak people on both ends of the whip, there are super needy s types and super needy D types, somebody being a masochist is just a sexual preference. You'd be surprised how many masos aren't submissive but just enjoy the sensation.

The idea that a sexual preference makes somebody weak or strong just doesn't work, there are quite a lot of very successful and strong people drawn to being submissive or masochistic in their private life, being submissive doesn't make anybody a door mat, most submissives are damned picky who they submit to!

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 5:52:56 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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It's a stereotype and like all stereotypes has it's origins in ignorance and low self esteem. A study of how and why stereotypes developing is rather interesting, but not terribly helpful unless you're into that sort of thing.

The following is taken from some slideshow notes (from MSU) on the topic:

How and why do people form stereotypes? The commonsense answer to these questions is captured in social learning theory. Simply put, we learn stereotypes from parents (our first and most influential teachers), significant others (e.g., peers), and the media. True enough. Research supports commonsense here but also indicates that commonsense does not tell the whole story.
Another explanation for how we form stereotypes comes from research in cognitive psychology on the categorization process. People like to, want to, need to categorize the world, both the social and physical world, into preferably neat little groups. They inevitably do so (i.e., categorize) for 3 reasons.
1) it’s cognitively efficient - once you have categorized you no longer need to consider information about each individual member of the group. You can apply all of the group information to all of its members. Categorization saves processing time and we are COGNITIVE MISERS.
2) it satisfies the need to understand and predict the social world. You no longer need to wonder what each individual is like (understand), or what he or she is likely to do (predict). All of this is contained in the stereotype.
3) it’s a way to feel better about yourself; we thing our groups (ingroups) are better than other groups (outgroups)- the INGROUP FAVORABILITY BIAS

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:06:22 AM

windchymes

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Oh, I dunno. I think there are some pretty weak souls out there who label themselves dominant and master and other grand titles to compensate for their own weaknesses.

And usually, people who call names are reflecting their own disgust at those same traits that they themselves have. As an example, homophobes who turn out to be gay themselves.

I agree with LC, I don't see how enjoying a physical feeling makes you weak. Once again, for those labelling them weak, perhaps they are feel some type of inadequacy because they know they couldn't take that kind of pain....?

Sorry, I'm watching Criminal Minds right now, my psych-brain is engaged, lol. Need more coffee!

Back to add: Chatte, apparently your psych-brain is engaged, too! Are you also watching Criminal Minds?

< Message edited by windchymes -- 2/23/2014 6:07:48 AM >

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:07:02 AM

pg4g

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You'd be surprised how many masos aren't submissive but just enjoy the sensation.

This is a whole other can of worms and sits very weirdly for me personally. What is the difference between a masochist and a submissive? I need forced loss of control. Like a chained fighting dog, I know I'm wild enough to rip a relationship to shreds, so I feel... helped by being forced into a position of lack of control. Controlled, doesn't like it, but needs it and feels safer when its not about me. Is this submission? As people have said, I beat to my own drum on this one

!

But back on topic! The reason I placed both in the question was actually due to the fact that either could be viewed as weak.

That's a very interesting post, CP! Do you have any link to that stuff?

[Edited to fix misunderstanding]

< Message edited by pg4g -- 2/23/2014 6:17:15 AM >

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 5

RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:12:27 AM

Blonderfluff

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How does having the strength to submit your will to another equate as weak? IMO it takes incredible strength. It is a decision, a desire to put another's happiness and needs as the primary focus of your life.

As far as a maso being weak? I know many that can take pain, enjoy pain, that would make most "strong" people flee in terror. I don't see THAT as weak either.

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:15:02 AM

LadyConstanze

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Not every switch wants to be forced to lose control, I think you are having a bit of tunnel vision because you are only looking at yourself and how you feel about things.

One of the great things about getting older is that you step back, you know what works for you, but you also see that other things work for other people and that there is not a damned thing wrong with it, doesn't make you right and the others wrong, it just makes you not compatible with them.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 7

RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:18:55 AM

pg4g

Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Not every switch wants to be forced to lose control, I think you are having a bit of tunnel vision because you are only looking at yourself and how you feel about things.

Hey, I just corrected my post. I see how you read it that way, but I was only referring to myself there, not all switches. That wasnt how I meant that to sound. Please don't think I'm that naive. Even amongst switches, I know I'm different. And I sort of like that.

Now back on topic!

< Message edited by pg4g -- 2/23/2014 6:32:02 AM >

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:50:29 AM

plesto

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I can easily see where a submissive being weak comes from. From an outside perspective they will appear to be weak willed individuals that are letting another person bend them to their will.

Masochist's on the other hand, I can't work that one out. How can someone who can take and enjoy pain be considered weak?

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 9

RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:54:17 AM

LadyConstanze

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Maybe I'm jaded, but what some stranger thinks or how a stranger might view me, it really doesn't change my world, especially online.

In my day to day interactions, I don't wear my orientation on my sleeve, it's nobody's business but my own, so they don't get to "judge", I wouldn't really discuss sexual preferences with colleagues or people I don't know very well. A few weeks I had a bit of a "gulp" moment, we discussed some stuff regarding performance of a department and somebody said "We got to crack the whip there", after a split second and some sweat, I figured it was just a matter of speech. Talk about paranoid ;)

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to pg4g)

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:56:42 AM

StrictlyADomina

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Stereotypes are generally learned from our family of origin and modified by our view on society be that through personal experience or from the media. It's a simple way to make sweeping judgements without having to put much effort into the process. Are there some people who might fit the caricature that is created in the heads of those who stereotype? Yes, you could probably find someone in this big world of ours to fit any predetermined mold. We all know this mode of thought is inaccurate, yet it abounds. As to your supposition that,

quote:

Looking at the recent posts by some people, and at society's views as a whole, it seems clear there's a viewpoint that submissives and masochists are weak people, both men and women.

In short it's inaccurate. Neither side of the D/s dynamic is inherently "weak" or "strong".

quote:

what do you think being submissive or masochistic says about a person?

To me it simply says that this is the way that they are. This is the same thing to me as being heterosexual, pan sexual, homosexual, extraverts, introverts or if they like ice cream. It is just the way that they are.

quote:

And does that viewpoint spoil a lot of people from accepting their tendencies?

Many people have a trouble accepting things about themselves regardless if is BDSM, sexual orientation, personality issues or health related. So why would this be any different for some?

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 11

RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 8:24:18 AM

shiftyw

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From: The Shire
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I think haters gonna hate.

I know weak people on both sides of the kneel.
People just love putting people into well defined boxes.

It took me a long time to accept myself and figure out who I am, and I'm 25- so its likely to shift and change still. Just like ANY aspect of my personality- its taken me a bit to get ok with it.

(in reply to StrictlyADomina)

Post #: 12

RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 10:00:00 AM

MarcEsadrian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Looking at the recent posts by some people, and at society's views as a whole, it seems clear there's a viewpoint that submissives and masochists are weak people, both men and women.

Where do you think this viewpoint comes from?

It's odd, isn't it? And it is, strangely, an attitude I find a lot in the BDSM community itself. We often have more to fear by our own peers than by the so-called "vanliia" masses. But you know, questioning the shell game of why “weak” has to be considered negative at all is the real culprit. That's what always remains stuck in my mind during discussions like these, for being being surrendered, open, and pliable before another’s will and force is often the point of doing this sort of stuff in the first place.

But presumptions that weakness (inadequacy) leads to submission or masochism—or slavery—are born wholly of misunderstanding to begin with, for those who have experienced doing anything like this know it is not the province of the delicate, ineffectual or unresolved. One can be a certain kind of strong in being submissive...very strong, indeed. And dynamics shared between two individuals in an intimate context does not define the individuals as a whole in other contexts, anyway.

< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 2/23/2014 10:11:21 AM >

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 10:28:45 AM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Looking at the recent posts by some people, and at society's views as a whole, it seems clear there's a viewpoint that submissives and masochists are weak people, both men and women.

Most people, both men and women, both vanilla and otherwise, are weak most of the time, with occasional bouts of self-confidence and strength in very specific areas.

At the same time, this isn't something that most people are willing to admit, because it requires admitting that the goal most people aspire to -to be self-confident and strong most of the time- probably isn't attainable for the vast majority of the population.

So the reason submissive's get labeled 'weak' so quickly, is because it's easy to write off their weak behavior as something in function of them being submissive along the lines of: "x behaved weakly in this instance, x is submissive, I don't want to be weak, I am not submissive; Therefore xs submission must be the cause of their weakness, as I cannot permit myself to consider my own weakness".

People do this with all sorts of groups, not just with BDSM groups, as long as they don't self-identify as being part of the group in question.
Black and gay people have historically always been identified as 'weak willed' groups until doing so becomes increasingly politically incorrect. Poor people (on welfare/disability) are currently still identified as 'weak willed' by the majority of the population.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 2/23/2014 10:30:03 AM >

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I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 12:47:00 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
Or what do you think being submissive or masochistic says about a person?

I think Carol being submissive "says" that she is submissive. I cannot for the life of me see how that connects with any word like strong or weak or some other character trait. She prefers to defer. It's not that mysterious.

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 2:21:08 PM

Pewter3239

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To start with, I think weak people CAN BE submissives or masochists, but could also be dominants or sadists too. Weak people everywhere!

But I think the impression comes from the fact that submissives and masochists put themselves in some way at the mercy of those they play with, or seem to. Conventional logic dictates that being at the marcy of someone else in any way is weakness. Therefore, submissives and masochists are weak. It's faulty logic, but there ya go.

(in reply to JeffBC)

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 4:11:32 PM

nyx84

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When you submit you are vulnerable to those you submit to vulnerability is often viewed as a weakness.

(in reply to Pewter3239)

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 6:04:52 PM

Spiritedsub2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84

When you submit you are vulnerable to those you submit to vulnerability is often viewed as a weakness.

I think this ^ is it. When we submit we are giving up control. I've been thinking about this lately, when I realized that if I were a Domme, I would post face pictures here and not be concerned if someone in my work life saw me. But I am very concerned about someone in my professional life seeing me identify as submissive, as not the one in control. It's contrary to what I do and how I need to be perceived there.

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/23/2014 11:29:57 PM

FieryOpal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spiritedsub2

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84

When you submit you are vulnerable to those you submit to vulnerability is often viewed as a weakness.

I think this ^ is it. When we submit we are giving up control. I've been thinking about this lately, when I realized that if I were a Domme, I would post face pictures here and not be concerned if someone in my work life saw me. But I am very concerned about someone in my professional life seeing me identify as submissive, as not the one in control. It's contrary to what I do and how I need to be perceived there.

Not only that, submissives and masochists are perceived by many as being needier than a Dominant or sadist. Neediness is viewed as a weakness. But I think most of us kinky folk know that we Dominants need our counterparts just as much, and I daresay there are Dominants who are actually needier than their subs, so by that measure, their need for dominance and/or to have somebody to own is their Achilles Heel.

As for posting pics, as a woman I'm always conservative about what I post, even on vanilla dating sites. I don't need some stranger off the street recognizing me while I'm out and about, especially not one who has inferred I'm kinky (which to a lot of men = loose morals, being fast & easy, and/or hot to trot). (I wasn't even going to post a partial photo of me here on CM and only relented a few days ago amidst hearing so many accounts about men posing as women, so I included one in my photo *art/storyboard* gallery that has never been used anywhere else before.)

I'm not as concerned on the business end, although being associated with BDSM does not help one's reputation out in the vanilla world, so there's always the need for caution whether you're Dominant or not. Besides, I've always been the type of person who avoids letting it be known to indiscreet parties what vulnerabilities or personal info they might be able to use against me or to their advantage. No, I'm more concerned about possibly embarrassing my family, or involving them directly or indirectly in my private life which I intend to keep private.

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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

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RE: Submissives, Masochists and Weakness - 2/24/2014 5:13:05 AM

theshytype

Posts: 1600
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For me it depends on what's being used to define weakness. I often feel weak and it's not because I consider myself submissive. It's because society tells me I am.
Because I don't want to lead, I'm considered weak. That it's a charecter flaw.

It's not what I truly believe.

We all have our weaknesses. The fact that I know what mine are and I choose to instead use my strengths, I believe I'm anything but weak. We can't all be a leader or make the rules.

Yes, society has shied me away from the desire to submit, especially to a man. Until I hit 30. Being told all along what you can do and are capable of doing, made what I wanted to do seem wrong.
That, with my intellegence, I should be leading. I should be in the fields men dominate. I should be telling people what to do. That I can be just as strong as men. Well, I don't care if I can. Fact is, I don't want to.

I don't need or want to be better than my partner. I want to be weaker where they are stronger and vice versa. I want to spend my energy where my strengths lie instead of wasting it where I know he's stronger.

I don't want to be told by men that I can't do something because I'm a woman.
I don't want to be told by women that I can't do something because I'm a woman.
I just want to do my own thing, be myself. I don't consider that weak.

(in reply to pg4g)

Post #: 20

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