RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this

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UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 9:59:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt When things get to the point of 'two people stuck feeding of each other's worst qualities' isn't it a mutual enslavement, dependence, addiction, please pick the word you feel best suits? I certainly agree that it can be enslavement, dependence or addiction. My disagreement lays with the implication that it always is. I wasn't enslaved, addicted, or dependent on him. I chose to subject myself to the situation -for reasons too complex and too personal to get into here- until I chose to no longer subject myself to it. To claim addiction or enslavement and thereby claim that I didn't have control over that choice, would be a cop-out and a lie for me. I did have control over that choice. I wasn't unable but unwilling to leave. I recognize that for others, there are situations in which this is different, and in which they are unable to leave. In that case, I consider enslavement (mutual or not) dependence, or addiction all to be apt words.

LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 11:58:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 What I find pathetic is the continuous berating of a lifestyle choice that, as a matter of basic etiquette, should be shown the same type of consideration as the various other ways of life that populate this public forum. Aries, This is probably drifting into being close to off-topic, but hopefully, folks will be patient. I was having an exchange not long ago with a friend that is more or less My Gorean go-to guy. We've been doing it for years now. When I don't understand something that's in the Gorean realm, he does his best to explain the finer points to Me. In return, when he has questions about leather, he'll drop Me a note. This has led to a great information exchange about both of the cultures. I'm sure I've learned more than I've taught, so I've certainly benefited from it. Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that you didn't realize that some areas other than face slapping would be triggers that could come into play. One of them being the Gor/other category. I'm not Gorean, but I've seen that happen a lot. When you pulled the quotes out from other comments earlier, I understood completely how you saw them. Had those comments been made with the word "leather" interchanged, I wouldn't have cared for it. We do have a mix of at least three cultures going on here. Goreans, to include those who have or currently prefer that culture. Leather, which isn't really coming into play, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say it. Third, kink folks who don't identify as either of the former two. Now, we've made things complicated because there are times that all three cultures are trying to exchange ideas that don't always cross over to the other cultures. Right up to and including that all three cultures, at times, use terms that mean different things depending on what culture a person comes from. (Not to mention all of the personal stuff we bring with us just as individuals.) I honestly think that there are times that we have to work at terms and concepts between the cultures so that everybody can get close to being on the same page. Some people are excellent at that. (Perfect demonstration happening in the exchange that's happening on the thread right now between the other women.) Hopefully, the positive stuff will outweigh what feels like the negative stuff of an attack of culture. I promise not all of us non Goreans are doing it. Even those that you might feel are doing it, might just be a matter of not intending to.

Kana -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 2:29:24 PM)
Ok,some thoughts. 1-For those troubled by the inability to view the OP's profile, I'm not saying I know her or have even talked to her ever (cuz I haven't)but the OP has had a profile in my home state on the other side for years. 2-I think people are kinda missing the point. This isn't a Gor or abuse issue. It's a slave issue 3-Ishy's pretty much nailed down my thoughts in her original post. 4-I think some people are missing a different perspective-his. Some things in a relationship are negotiable. Some things are not (This is true for everyone. Vanilla, kinky, whoever, we all have lines). If this guy is really hardcore, he's operating on the root idea that her servitude and his control is the basis of their interaction. More so, that power exchange is what enables the interaction to occur., w/o it, there is no relationship because there is no point. Consider it the sun around which all else revolves. If that's that case, she has some choices. A-She can recommit to her servitude(And I think Ishy is dead on when she comments on the headspace/mentality) B-Work with him to evoke some change.My bet is that she can find a way to introduce ways to spice things up/change in a humble fashion that does not elicit a negative response. C-She can jet. That doors always open. Frankly,I understand somewhat where the cat may be coming from. Ya'll board regulars know that mouse and I have changed the way we interact over the years,in response to health issues,jobs, time constraints, etc. Generally these come about one of two ways: -I draw it out of her after she undergoes an extended period of personal misery. This usually involves a proccess somewhat more painful than a root canal, while getting a glass rod shoved upmy dick. Fuck,it's tough to get slaves to talk about shit sometimes. Typical conversation: " Him "You seem upset." "I'm fine" Him-"Are you sure.I swear those are tears rolling down your face?" "Everythings OK." Him-"Well talk to me,what's on your mind?" (Ya'll know what's coming) "Nothing" Him-"Sure?" "Uh huh"-bursts into sobs and flees.. After that it's interrogation time. A few excruciating hours later,she's coughed up the truth of how she feels, she's weeping in a ball, we're both emotionally wiped, and I feel like I've been hit by an Imperial Destroyer. That's the painful way. A better way is that she just slowly slides she the possible alternatives into my life. Like pretty much everything else in life,it's now what one says but how one goes about saying it that really matters. Smart women,especially ones that really know their man-yeah,they can always, as in alwaysalwaysalways find a way to do this But no matter what,the base fact is that the terms of the relationship are the power exchange. He might not be willing to flex-it may be that important to him. And there's not a damn thing wrong with that either. He stayed true to who and what he is and to himself. I respect that in people. But the sad reality in life is that people either grow together or they grow apart. They can choose to do the former-I know I did. But if not,it doesn't mean either party is at fault,it just means that they grew along different paths

littlewonder -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 5:33:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g When someone can't distinguish fantasy from reality, it goes from lifestyle choice to delusional. The part I quoted above was specifically talking about people actually thinking their slave was NOT a consenting adult because they have no rights to be, nor do they have any rights to consent. Anyone who actually in reality thinks that, rather than in some part of their fantasy, is delusional and lost in that fantasy. To which I say it is not a lifestyle choice, ARIES83. It's delusion. What do you consider "consent"? I can't really say we live by "consent". I gave consent once.....once and once only....to be in a relationship with him and to allow him to do whatever the hell he wants with me. Sure, I could walk away at anytime but I would see that as losing all of my integrity. And that to me is the worst feeling ever in life....worse than anything that he could possibly do to me.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 6:06:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder worse than anything that he could possibly do to me. I really need to talk to Kana about his lack of creativity. [:D]

pg4g -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 6:30:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g When someone can't distinguish fantasy from reality, it goes from lifestyle choice to delusional. The part I quoted above was specifically talking about people actually thinking their slave was NOT a consenting adult because they have no rights to be, nor do they have any rights to consent. Anyone who actually in reality thinks that, rather than in some part of their fantasy, is delusional and lost in that fantasy. To which I say it is not a lifestyle choice, ARIES83. It's delusion. What do you consider "consent"? I can't really say we live by "consent". I gave consent once.....once and once only....to be in a relationship with him and to allow him to do whatever the hell he wants with me. Sure, I could walk away at anytime but I would see that as losing all of my integrity. And that to me is the worst feeling ever in life....worse than anything that he could possibly do to me. Of course, Littlewonder, but you still know you have that right to leave, and you've said so before. So even on some level, staying is consent. When things get seriously way too tough for you, say you got told to chop off your legs for Kana, and say if you honestly couldn't do that, you would know you could leave, and you may do so. When people start to lose perspective and say that a slave has no rights to choose, to consent, etc, then they're starting to believe that their slave IS a real slave, and they get lost in the fantasy. And when a slave starts to believe that they actually, in all honesty, have no rights to walk away, they are getting lost in the fantasy also.

littlewonder -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 6:34:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder worse than anything that he could possibly do to me. I really need to talk to Kana about his lack of creativity. [:D] [sm=moon.gif]

ARIES83 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 7:22:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lady Pact Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that you didn't realize that some areas other than face slapping would be triggers that could come into play. One of them being the Gor/other category. I'm not Gorean, but I've seen that happen a lot. When you pulled the quotes out from other comments earlier, I understood completely how you saw them. Had those comments been made with the word "leather" interchanged, I wouldn't have cared for it. I haven't spoken at any point in this thread from a Gorean point of view. Point in fact, I am not Gorean. So I encourage you to put aside whatever tolerance you have for "cultural differences" in my case, and address any comments I've made that you 'wouldn't have cared for', as you would one rational person to another. They will either stand of fall on their own merits. quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g The part I quoted above was specifically talking about people actually thinking their slave was NOT a consenting adult because they have no rights to be, nor do they have any rights to consent. Anyone who actually in reality thinks that, rather than in some part of their fantasy, is delusional and lost in that fantasy. To which I say it is not a lifestyle choice, ARIES83. It's delusion. Your interpretation of Ishtar's post is an excellent example of delusion. You have read a whole bunch of stuff into it that isn't there. Ishtar is merely trying to convey a sense of definition and aesthetics. For example... I don't own a slave. Why? Because I view a slave as being someone that meets a certain criteria. I currently don't have someone that meets that criteria, and so I don't own a slave. Calling someone a slave that did not meet my criteria would be the fantasy... If someone sees a slave as not having the ability to consent... Then calling someone with the ability to consent, 'a slave' is an inappropriate definition.... This is not Gorean thinking so much as basic reason.

pg4g -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 7:36:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 Your interpretation of Ishtar's post is an excellent example of delusion. You have read a whole bunch of stuff into it that isn't there. Ishtar is merely trying to convey a sense of definition and aesthetics. For example... I don't own a slave. Why? Because I view a slave as being someone that meets a certain criteria. I currently don't have someone that meets that criteria, and so I don't own a slave. Calling someone a slave that did not meet my criteria would be the fantasy... If someone sees a slave as not having the ability to consent... Then calling someone with the ability to consent, 'a slave' is an inappropriate definition.... This is not Gorean thinking so much as basic reason. And if you had this definition, then no one could become a slave, because every person has the right to withdraw consent. Otherwise it becomes illegal.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 7:43:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g And if you had this definition, then no one could become a slave, because every person has the right to withdraw consent. Otherwise it becomes illegal. Just FYI... people are capable of doing illegal stuff ya know... But even that aside, I gather from your previous posts that you agree with the assessment that sometimes people in abusive relationships can become internally enslaved. Those people often didn't consent to being internally enslaved, but they sure as heck have lost the capacity to withdraw consent. So, people can very well become slaves according to that definition, as legal rights to withdraw consent don't imply personal capability to withdraw consent. I urge you to pay more attention to the actual meaning of words, and things actually said in posts, as discussing this with you is impossible if you're going to insist on inferring meaning that isn't there every time somebody says something. Aries specifically talked about abilities, not about legal rights.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 7:44:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 quote: ORIGINAL: Lady Pact Earlier in the thread, you mentioned that you didn't realize that some areas other than face slapping would be triggers that could come into play. One of them being the Gor/other category. I'm not Gorean, but I've seen that happen a lot. When you pulled the quotes out from other comments earlier, I understood completely how you saw them. Had those comments been made with the word "leather" interchanged, I wouldn't have cared for it. I haven't spoken at any point in this thread from a Gorean point of view. Point in fact, I am not Gorean. So I encourage you to put aside whatever tolerance you have for "cultural differences" in my case, and address any comments I've made that you 'wouldn't have cared for', as you would one rational person to another. They will either stand of fall on their own merits. She meant that she understood you not caring for the harsh comments made towards Goreans, and that had those same comment been made towards leather people instead, she wouldn't have taken the lightly either.

littlewonder -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 8:06:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder quote: ORIGINAL: pg4g When someone can't distinguish fantasy from reality, it goes from lifestyle choice to delusional. The part I quoted above was specifically talking about people actually thinking their slave was NOT a consenting adult because they have no rights to be, nor do they have any rights to consent. Anyone who actually in reality thinks that, rather than in some part of their fantasy, is delusional and lost in that fantasy. To which I say it is not a lifestyle choice, ARIES83. It's delusion. What do you consider "consent"? I can't really say we live by "consent". I gave consent once.....once and once only....to be in a relationship with him and to allow him to do whatever the hell he wants with me. Sure, I could walk away at anytime but I would see that as losing all of my integrity. And that to me is the worst feeling ever in life....worse than anything that he could possibly do to me. Of course, Littlewonder, but you still know you have that right to leave, and you've said so before. So even on some level, staying is consent. When things get seriously way too tough for you, say you got told to chop off your legs for Kana, and say if you honestly couldn't do that, you would know you could leave, and you may do so. When people start to lose perspective and say that a slave has no rights to choose, to consent, etc, then they're starting to believe that their slave IS a real slave, and they get lost in the fantasy. And when a slave starts to believe that they actually, in all honesty, have no rights to walk away, they are getting lost in the fantasy also. I'll be honest....if Master told me to cut off my legs, I would. Why? Because I trust him and know that if he told me to do so, there is a good reason why. If that means I'm lost in some kind of delusion, I think I'm more than happy to stay in that delusion.

ARIES83 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 9:43:02 PM)
Ah, I understand now. thanks Ishtar. Lady Pact, In my opinion this thread has nothing to do with Gor, and at the heart of the matter it's really just differences in M/s sensibilities.

pg4g -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/6/2014 10:01:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I'll be honest....if Master told me to cut off my legs, I would. Why? Because I trust him and know that if he told me to do so, there is a good reason why. If that means I'm lost in some kind of delusion, I think I'm more than happy to stay in that delusion. Not at all. Your reasons that you brought up were about trust etc, and are quite level-headed. But if you had a reason and wanted to walk out, you know you can, and that was my point. For someone who doesn't think they can leave, however, there are more issues there. That's when the mind isn't believing facts any more, and that's when there's an issue.

Arturas -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 1:48:28 AM)
quote: But she wishes that the mornings could be used for some romantic talks, discussion, just talking, watching the news, kindling romance etc.. Of course. Because you, like Star, are in love as all perfect slaves are to their perfect master who to be perfect must love his "slave". So, I see you have evolved past the storybook roles and you wish him to evolve also into that master who shares his love and his dreams, his joys and his tears and touches you in ways a perfect master can while he leaves the self focus behind and comes to the understanding each perfect master comes to, that he who is a perfect master does not command and take but instead shares of himself in his natural role and you in yours without commands being necessary or desired. They are not necessary or desired because ritualistic commands and such things as physical collars and slave positions provide a structure where one does not exist and enforce a relationship that does not come naturally to both of you and so we and you evolved out of that because they are not necessary except to reinforce a mastery that should not need reinforcement by making his "slave" do tricks like slave positions or dancing to the touch of a bull whip for ex-Gorean slaves. So, this now comes back to the slave from Maryland who is naturally ready to move past morning slave positions and evolve by taking one last slave position, take his hand and tell him you love him and you are a slave to his heart and not his head and need his very special touch rather than his command. See then if he is the perfect master. Well wishes, Arturas and Star

FieryOpal -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 4:22:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas Of course. Because you, like Star, are in love as all perfect slaves are to their perfect master who to be perfect must love his "slave". So, I see you have evolved past the storybook roles and you wish him to evolve also into that master who shares his love and his dreams, his joys and his tears and touches you in ways a perfect master can while he leaves the self focus behind and comes to the understanding each perfect master comes to, that he who is a perfect master does not command and take but instead shares of himself in his natural role and you in yours without commands being necessary or desired. They are not necessary or desired because ritualistic commands and such things as physical collars and slave positions provide a structure where one does not exist and enforce a relationship that does not come naturally to both of you and so we and you evolved out of that because they are not necessary except to reinforce a mastery that should not need reinforcement by making his "slave" do tricks like slave positions or dancing to the touch of a bull whip for ex-Gorean slaves. So, this now comes back to the slave from Maryland who is naturally ready to move past morning slave positions and evolve by taking one last slave position, take his hand and tell him you love him and you are a slave to his heart and not his head and need his very special touch rather than his command. See then if he is the perfect master. Well wishes, Arturas and Star I think you've hit the nail on the head with OP. She has evolved, but her Master-husband hasn't, won't or can't move forward to that level. He may not ever have the inner capacity to grow in expressing the kind of love with his slave-wife that she needs, wants, and desires to become closer to her Master. This is probably why she felt compelled to ask others' opinions in order to understand his motivations, so she would be better equipped either to find a way to reach him or to cope with her circumstances. Many of us are reading our own interpretations into her situation because we can sense her desperation. This husband is not made of stone, but this wife is not feeling loved and cherished as a woman, regardless of her slave status. If only this Master and other Masters could be more like you are with your Star and Kana is with his littlewonder. [:)] ETA: Both your slaves live with the safe assurance of not being harmed because neither of you would break your toys.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 10:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas dancing to the touch of a bull whip for ex-Gorean slaves. Still that nonsense? As said many many times before, that never happened. Bull didn't have a bullwhip at the time we were together, nor would he have used a whip for leisure on me. Besides that, anybody who would attempt to use a bullwhip on a dancing, moving target without an agreed choreography is out of their mind. Even the type of experts who can hit a cigarette butt with a bullwhip couldn't pull off what you claim happened.

LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 10:36:27 AM)
Thank you, Ishtar. You were spot on. quote: ORIGINAL: ARIES83 Ah, I understand now. thanks Ishtar. Lady Pact, In my opinion this thread has nothing to do with Gor, and at the heart of the matter it's really just differences in M/s sensibilities. Possibly, it could be either. They are Gorean and some comments reflected that aspect in some of the answers. Being a leather person, I could very easily see at least some of this coming from a perspective of morning ritual that the M wants to keep and the s wants to give up. (Let's skip the part about punishment for bringing the subject up after the M has said it won't change.) In a leather house, it would be the M's decision on how to handle the matter.

Arturas -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 9:59:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas dancing to the touch of a bull whip for ex-Gorean slaves. Still that nonsense? As said many many times before, that never happened. Bull didn't have a bullwhip at the time we were together, nor would he have used a whip for leisure on me. Besides that, anybody who would attempt to use a bullwhip on a dancing, moving target without an agreed choreography is out of their mind. Even the type of experts who can hit a cigarette butt with a bullwhip couldn't pull off what you claim happened. Of course. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2962258

UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/7/2014 10:26:14 PM)
Yeah... that post doesn't even refer to the picture of the dance you're talking about . A picture that was taken while I was still in Belgium (taken circa June 2008) about 3 months before I first met Bull. The event you're misrepresenting (the tether dance) happened in August of 2008. Note that the post actually says that the picture was taken, in Belgium, by a friend. Bull has never been in Belgium with me, and certainly didn't take the picture in question. Further more, the whip in the picture is a flogger, not a bullwhip. It's owned by my friend, and Bull has never seen it in person, let alone used it on me (in fact, that whip was never used on me by anybody at all). But thanks for playing...

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