RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (Full Version)

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UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 10:48:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

It wasn't her having to do the positions every day that I found abusive, it was her husband's reaction to it.

If I suddenly decided, gee Himself, *I* want to be the one who decides what we get to watch tonight, we've had 15 years of you deciding, he would automatically realize something bad was happening in our relationship, and it has nothing to so with DVD viewing.

He would instantly understand that there were underlying issues in our relationship that needed to be addressed. He would see the need to discuss it until we got to what was *really* bothering me.


It's just another 'what if'.

What if this guy was exactly the same person as your guy, and what if this woman is exactly the same as you? If your guy did that to you, then it would be abusive, therefore, this guy doing it to her must also be abusive, even if she says it isn't.

It's from there that I speculated that the issue may be that she's horny, and I wouldn't be in the least surprised if she's provoking him to beat her on purpose to get her jollies off, because if I play the 'what if' game the result is as following:

What if this guy was exactly the same person as my guy, and what if this woman is exactly the same as me? If I felt bored by and didn't feel horny and stimulated by our BDSM play anymore, and then proceeded to bring up this topic in a way with my husband that I knew guaranteed me a beating every time, my guy would know that what I was trying to do was to spice up our sex lives. He would therefore not be concerned about me actually wanting to discuss the topic, because he knows that if I actually wanted to talk to him, instead of get beaten, I would say something that would guarantee to me that we'd talk (like time-out) instead of say something that would make him assume I was acting like a slave looking for a beating.
Thus, this Master Husband must think that she's looking for a beating, and if that is not what she's looking for, she should quit sending him mixed messages...



UllrsIshtar -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 10:57:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The fact they are married changes the "don't like it then leave" situation considerably. So while there may have been a "fantasy" contract saying the slave has nothing and is entitled to nothing and will be a slave in peretuity, the law says different and people need to be aware of that.


Nobody has denied that, stated differently or suggested differently to the OP.

In fact, I disagree that the marriage changes anything about that. In most Western countries, you can't just kick somebody out on the street, whether or not you're married to them. You can't just make somebody homeless after they established residence, nor can you demand they leave their possessions behind, nor can you demand they leave without their savings.

About the only thing the marriage changes is how much property she is due, and the fact that they will have to get the state's permission to consider the breakup final.

Further more, the third option that's been continuously been brought up she has is to end the dynamic, and then reevaluate together with her husband if she still wants a relationship with him, is also not in the least influenced by the fact that they're married, and still on the table at all times, regardless of the legal status of their relationship.



LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 11:29:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
In theory I agree that bringing something up repeatedly after you've already gotten a no answer is counter-productive to the relationship. But I think you have to look deeper than that and see that most really want to be obedient, pleasing, everything their d-type wants them to be. So if they are repeatedly asking for something, they're actually not being a pain in the ass, or flaunting authority, they have an issue.

In real time relationships we know issues can be so convoluted it's difficult to determine what the real problem is. That's certainly true of me. Once I know what's *really* bugging me, it can be resolved.

I can't say that I saw that. It seemed like the OP was able to articulate here why she had made the request and even why she wanted the morning routine to be altered. I don't want to assume that she didn't do the same thing in the discussion that was in the household.

The OP only has two posts on this thread. One of which was the original. I've tried reading them several times to try to determine just how many times the same subject was brought up. From the various punishments that were mentioned, I have to think it was quite a few. Even to the point where the punishment is now a 'she-sleen' (did I get that right?) which, thanks to sunshinemiss' explanation means 'get out of My hair'. To Me, that means the requests have been numerous enough to become that proverbial pain in the ass.

There's a lot at play here about how people are determining what is and what is not abuse. I'm sure many folks on this thread could have picked what would trigger certain posters to that conclusion. Punishment dynamics. Face slapping. Whip used for punishment, rather than S/m. The amount of authority being more than what some people want. This thing was stacked from the get go.

That thing a couple of pages about about retroactively withdrawing consent? That part has fascinating possibilities.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 11:42:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
My position remains, married or not: if she wants to end the dynamic, she needs to end the dynamic (and then decide whether or not she wants to stay a couple with this man and/or he with her), if she wants to remain in the dynamic, then she needs to accept that within the dynamic, it's none of her business to bring up grievances.

The problem as I see it Ishtar, is that a 'dynamic' is just that - "dynamic".
Ie, it is (or should be) open to change if need be - or at least have a 'get out' clause.

To me, it should never ever be "Obey Me" or "Fuck Off" as the only available options.
Notwithstanding all the legal shit, within the dynamic, I would agree with that.
But, and I think it is very important, there must always be a "can we step out of the role play for a moment because I have an issue that needs to be addressed".
Even in a Gor-based dynamic, that opening needs to be there - just for sanity if nothing else.
I'm not advocating that it has to be fluid in the sense that it changes every 5 minutes, or daily/monthly or whatever; just that the overriding option should be there, somewhere.

If it was a role-play session, it might be different.
But these guys are married and 'the marriage' is another entirely different dynamic altogether.
If they want to play at Gorean lifestyle, so be it - that's their choice.
But we all know that the law trumps any marriage arrangements and those marriage arrangements trump anything within role-play; or at least it should IMHO.
If OP's Master husband is soo engrossed in the role-play that he has effectively decided that his fantasy trumps real life - that spells trouble.

You seem to come from the viewpoint that once OP has given consent to not having any consent, that 'command' is set in stone, utterly and completely, for the rest of her natural other than to walk.
From a Gor perspective, that may well be true.
But we all know it is role-play and does not trump anything in real life.

Gawd... I'm not explaining this very well am I.
What I and several others are trying to say is, OP has a real-life issue that is affecting her ability to translate that effectively into the role-play dynamic (it is obviously a problem for her otherwise why bring it to a forum such as CM) but her Master hubby is just too engrossed in his role that he cannot (or refuses to) acknowledge that her issue even exists.
For many of us, that is the crucial point where role-play has stepped into abuse.
Maybe you don't see it that way because you are Gor-trained and don't accept that the option is available to OP.
We are saying that she appears to have lost her ability to withdraw consent just because her Master hubby has brainwashed her into believing she cannot do that.

Bottom line is, any dynamic is just role-play and real-life issues must take precedence every time.
Whatever consent was given can be withdrawn - assuming that you are mentally able to do so.
What we are questioning is her mental ability to make that withdrawal given the circumstances she is in.

Fuckit!! Can anyone explain it any clear than my diatribe??



kalikshama -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 12:23:40 PM)

quote:

That thing a couple of pages about about retroactively withdrawing consent? That part has fascinating possibilities.


I believe Ishtar had misread something LL said and that no one actually suggested retroactively withdrawing consent.



LadyConstanze -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 12:31:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

That thing a couple of pages about about retroactively withdrawing consent? That part has fascinating possibilities.


I believe Ishtar had misread something LL said and that no one actually suggested retroactively withdrawing consent.


Agreed, the general consensus was that consent can be withdrawn at any time but never retroactively.



LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 1:03:14 PM)

Got it. Would have been kind of a weird way to go about it. [:)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Gawd... I'm not explaining this very well am I.

Fuckit!! Can anyone explain it any clear than my diatribe??


Not in the slightest. I did have a thought that occurred to Me though.

I'm a leather person. Not a Gorean person. If I'm getting this wrong, somebody from a Gorean perspective will have to correct Me.

A good number of leather folks use protocols and rituals as an outward expression of the power imbalance in a dynamic. From reading the OP, that's what morning time is for in their house. It's not necessarily about the love/affection part. It's about the authority/surrender part. A specific time to focus on those things that make their dynamic what it is. I wonder if that might be the reason why the Master Husband didn't want every other day and is holding firm to it being every day?

Or, the guy could just be like Me in the morning and doesn't want the interactive talking when he's starting his day. First thing I heard out of MP this morning was that he was tempted to do this http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4651501 to all of My Diet Pepsi bottles. (I don't drink coffee.)





freedomdwarf1 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 1:34:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Or, the guy could just be like Me in the morning and doesn't want the interactive talking when he's starting his day. First thing I heard out of MP this morning was that he was tempted to do this http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4651501 to all of My Diet Pepsi bottles. (I don't drink coffee.)

Oh yeah!! Both myself and my OH are just like that in the mornings. [:D]

But whilst I fully agree about the rituals within any dynamic, it has to be said, it is solely within the dynamic.
To have that set in stone, forever, right from the get-go, with no form of addressing a real-life issue, surely isn't right or moral - regardless of whatever dynamic is in place??

I'm sure if MP came up with something that was important to him that would have serious consequences for both the marriage and the role-play/dynamic, you would at least give it an ear and consider it sensibly like all reasonable adults?
The same with tk; if he happened to be living with you and he brought something up, you'd listen?
Surely you wouldn't just turn round and side-swipe his face and tell him he just can't because this is what he originally agreed to?
I think you would at least give either of them a fair hearing, then explain what your decision is.

The problem with OP's position is that her Master hubby is denying the issue and completely dismissing it with violence. He doesn't seem to want to step out of his Gorean role for a single second.
Add that to OP's apparent inability to make a stand and (albeit temporarily) present her issue is worrysome.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 1:51:03 PM)

Your inexperience with spousal abuse is appalling. That the woman in that instance doesn't consider herself abused means absolutely nothing. Most abuse victims deny it for a long while and some *never* admit to being abused.

From your statements it's quite clear you have never been internally enslaved for any period of time. Being manipulated and controlled in a way that makes you think less of yourself for years can render *anyone* unable to see reality, to know what is consent and what isn't, what's abuse and what isn't.

Your statement that it's not the husband's job to school his wife on financial affairs is equally misguided. If your own spouse isn't supposed to care enough about you to see to it that you know the basics, well then who should?

I can agree that a person can't count on their spouse's help in furthering their education or skills in areas they lack, but morally I consider it the spouse's responsibility. It is certainly the responsibility of anyone styling themselves as 'master.'

(As a for instance, I've come a long way in teaching Himself how to handle basic laundry, which prior to living with me was *not* his strong point. He's still not that great, but he can do a serviceable job. Now, laundry is my job, he doesn't have to know how to do it. But it's a basic skill set, and one he needs to know should I be unable to do it. Teaching him that doesn't diminish our dynamic in any way. It's merely one spouse helping another with a skill set.)

From my point of view you are extremely inexperienced and naive when it comes to relationships. You like to make everything black and white, cut and dried, when emotional relationships are rarely so easily defined. People don't always know how they feel, or what's bothering them, to say nothing of knowing how to articulate it to their partner in a way they can understand and then resolve the issue. If it were easy, we wouldn't need therapists and counselors.

Even the best of relationships are messy and don't fit into easy black and white parameters.

Although I can agree we don't have enough information to know for sure that the wife is in an abusive relationship, I would lay good money that five years from now she's either gone or has been hospitalized by her 'masterhusband.'







ARIES83 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 2:04:54 PM)

Freedomwarf1,
All power exchange does not exist solely in the realm of "Role-play" or outside the bounds of "Real-life".
Try telling LP that her dynamic is a fantasy thing, or JeffBC, or LW and Kana.. Gor has nothing to do with the ideas your trying to put forward. Your basically saying, that any relationship that deviates from the conventions and legalities of modern society is a temporary fantasy, that will evaporate when exposed to the harsh light of reality.

You and many other posters in this thread, while having many good points to discuss around this topic, are also projecting and imposing your own hang ups on other people and their relationships.



sunshinemiss -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 2:52:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

There's a lot at play here about how people are determining what is and what is not abuse. I'm sure many folks on this thread could have picked what would trigger certain posters to that conclusion.




Hi LadyPact,
I was one who has stated that I feel it is abuse, and I can tell you what made me think it.

She clearly needs something. I don't think the morning routine is it so much as she needs some attention from him. The routine is just what she is focused on. She has an issue with needing some attention, he punishes her for a normal, human need. She is so desperate for understanding that she came here. Her bodily functions are being used against her, she is being tossed aside and ignored over and over again. She doesn't have anyone in her real life to talk to about this and is isolated. She has bought into the 'not being permitted to ask' thing. While that may be acceptable for some folks, it is causing distress in her life. She has nowhere to bring up her concerns. These are pretty common tells for abuse.

To me it boils down to her not being permitted to express a need... not a want... a need for connection.

best,
sunshine



kalikshama -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 2:53:25 PM)

Thanks Sunny.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 2:54:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Freedomwarf1,
All power exchange does not exist solely in the realm of "Role-play" or outside the bounds of "Real-life".
Try telling LP that her dynamic is a fantasy thing, or JeffBC, or LW and Kana.. Gor has nothing to do with the ideas your trying to put forward. Your basically saying, that any relationship that deviates from the conventions and legalities of modern society is a temporary fantasy, that will evaporate when exposed to the harsh light of reality.

You and many other posters in this thread, while having many good points to discuss around this topic, are also projecting and imposing your own hang ups on other people and their relationships.

I'm not saying it is temporary - far from it.
I am also not saying that it is all and only fantasy either.

What I am saying, is that whatever consent is given at the beginning of any dynamic isn't set in stone, forever, right from the get-go, with absolutely no way to raise a real-life issue that could have devastating consequences for said dynamic.
It is not, nor should ever be, complete and absolute right off the bat, never ever to change.

I am pretty sure that for most on here, even those within a very strict dynamic, should something important come up the OH wouldn't just slap their face and be told to suck it up or fuck off.
Most on here have demonstrated, one way or another, that they are sensible adults and would deal with a real-life issue above and beyond their own dynamic.
Even Jeff has stated on these boards that knowing Carol wouldn't ever refuse (because she is in that type of slavery dynamic), he wouldn't make the type of demand that he knows she just wouldn't do.
It's all a point of balance and it is all within the dynamic.
Even those with imbalance, it is carefully controlled and usually monitored for the benefit of the dynamic as a whole.
I'm fairly sure that for Jeff, LW, LP et al, what they have now wasn't exactly like that from square one. Their lifestyle and dynamic has evolved, changed (even slightly), and settled into what they have now.

In the OP's case, she has indicated that there is a problem that needs to be addressed because, rightly or wrongly (according to their own dynamic), it is seriously affecting the OP to be part of that dynamic as it stands.
If OP wasn't married to her Master, there would be more on here that would be saying to get out of a bad situation because the so-called 'master' is completely ignoring her to the point that she is feeling bored and not wanting to continue that particular aspect of her life; ergo, a potential deal-breaker.



LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 3:07:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Oh yeah!! Both myself and my OH are just like that in the mornings. [:D]

But whilst I fully agree about the rituals within any dynamic, it has to be said, it is solely within the dynamic.
To have that set in stone, forever, right from the get-go, with no form of addressing a real-life issue, surely isn't right or moral - regardless of whatever dynamic is in place??

I'm sure if MP came up with something that was important to him that would have serious consequences for both the marriage and the role-play/dynamic, you would at least give it an ear and consider it sensibly like all reasonable adults?
The same with tk; if he happened to be living with you and he brought something up, you'd listen?
Surely you wouldn't just turn round and side-swipe his face and tell him he just can't because this is what he originally agreed to?
I think you would at least give either of them a fair hearing, then explain what your decision is.

The problem with OP's position is that her Master hubby is denying the issue and completely dismissing it with violence. He doesn't seem to want to step out of his Gorean role for a single second.
Add that to OP's apparent inability to make a stand and (albeit temporarily) present her issue is worrysome.

I'm still not terribly convinced that the Master never listened to the slave when it was first being brought up. I don't think we'll know that unless the OP comes back. My view on this is that, depending on how many times the request was made, I might have gotten tired of listening to it, too. Yes, I like to think I'm a reasonable human being. At the same time, I do know that I've told an s-type to get on their knees, and unless there was something that is additional information on a matter, that the subject was closed. That's a command.

I'm a little out of My field here because the times that I've done O/p (the closest I can come to that would compare to what I think is Gorean slavery) there wasn't any of the "in love" stuff. Asking for more 'couple type, affection based' activity doesn't apply. I know on a personal level, if I'm dealing with someone that is being disobedient (not saying that the OP is) I'm less likely to display affection because I'm unhappy.

This thread does remind Me a bit of prior discussions on the forums regarding which is of higher importance to them. The relationship or the dynamic. For some folks, the authority dynamic is more important. It may not be for the majority, but it does exist for some people.




LadyPact -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 4:51:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
Hi LadyPact,
I was one who has stated that I feel it is abuse, and I can tell you what made me think it.

She clearly needs something. I don't think the morning routine is it so much as she needs some attention from him. The routine is just what she is focused on. She has an issue with needing some attention, he punishes her for a normal, human need. She is so desperate for understanding that she came here. Her bodily functions are being used against her, she is being tossed aside and ignored over and over again. She doesn't have anyone in her real life to talk to about this and is isolated. She has bought into the 'not being permitted to ask' thing. While that may be acceptable for some folks, it is causing distress in her life. She has nowhere to bring up her concerns. These are pretty common tells for abuse.

To me it boils down to her not being permitted to express a need... not a want... a need for connection.

best,
sunshine

Hi sunshine,

I'm sorry. I didn't see this comment when it was first posted. (Cleaning the house in phases, so I apologize for missing it.)

I tend to be rather iffy when it comes to needs vrs wants on an emotional level. I'm nowhere near on the higher end of the "need" scale and assess most of those things as wants. I mean, look at what My spouse does for a living. Lots of people couldn't deal with long separations because their 'needs' for affection or physical contact daily are what I categorize as wants. (Please remember, we weren't always poly and some of those separations due to work were during us being monogamous.) Great when I have it. Not something I'm not going to survive if I don't.

I also didn't see where she said she had no one to talk to. I didn't click the links so it may have been in there. I thought she wanted the opinion of those on the other side of the kneel, which she might not have access to ask directly. Since we're talking about Gorean folks, rather than what some BDSM folks do with Dominant discussion groups or sub circle, I'd be at a loss for that.




pg4g -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 5:33:07 PM)

[Post Deleted]



ARIES83 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 7:05:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lady Pact

There's a lot at play here about how people are determining what is and what is not abuse. I'm sure many folks on this thread could have picked what would trigger certain posters to that conclusion. Punishment dynamics. Face slapping. Whip used for punishment, rather than S/m. The amount of authority being more than what some people want. This thing was stacked from the get go.


[sm=biggrin.gif]
I actually had no idea there was such a divide based around these points.
The reaction to the topic of face slapping I have encountered before, but as for the rest...



kalikshama -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 7:57:04 PM)

I love getting my face slapped during a scene and just this evening pointed out to him that he used to do it a lot harder this time last year when we had just started having sex. Now that he loves me, he doesn't want to hurt me [:(][:(][:(]

However, the OP got slapped (and whipped, and ignored) in response to her attempt to discuss a problem in their relationship and that, to me, is abusive.



kalikshama -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 8:00:26 PM)

quote:

What if this guy was exactly the same person as my guy, and what if this woman is exactly the same as me? If I felt bored by and didn't feel horny and stimulated by our BDSM play anymore, and then proceeded to bring up this topic in a way with my husband that I knew guaranteed me a beating every time, my guy would know that what I was trying to do was to spice up our sex lives. He would therefore not be concerned about me actually wanting to discuss the topic, because he knows that if I actually wanted to talk to him, instead of get beaten, I would say something that would guarantee to me that we'd talk (like time-out) instead of say something that would make him assume I was acting like a slave looking for a beating.


She's not. You are able to articulate your needs and advocate for yourself far better and more clearly than she is.

I get no sense that she knows about asking for time outs, or that she got her rocks off from the slappings and whippings.



ARIES83 -> RE: How often does a Master usually put his slave into slave positions. What's so interesting about this (3/5/2014 8:23:01 PM)

Well, I've got the hankering to break out the whips and chains on a few people here myself. So I can relate.
[sm=crop.gif]

*** http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXkbJwrN38 ***



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