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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 8:50:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		never mind

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/4/2014 8:51:15 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 8:51:39 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that even if he did know Westbrook had Alzheimers it wouldn't mean he was harmless.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:05:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that even if he did know Westbrook had Alzheimers it wouldn't mean he was harmless.

You're arguing the 72 year old who had been out in the winter Georgia mountain night for several hours with no coat was so great a physical threat to the 35 year old ex soldier that he would have had no choice but to shoot him 4 times? Really?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:07:51 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Thank heavens they also don't act like your hero... or every time someone knocks on a door at night they will get a stomach full of lead if they don't stop after three challenges.


What I'd be curious to see is what happens legally when a stranger knocks on someones door, gets challenged and responds by killing the home owner.

Follow me here, with the expansion of castle doctrine (unless one has up no trespassing signs and possibly even then) our welcome mats are a strangers castle. Now we order the stranger to retreat or we'll shoot but with stand y̶o̶u̶r̶ (someone else's) ground the stranger has no duty to defuse the situation by retreating. So because the stranger isn't retreating he has a rational fear that his life is in danger (we just told him so after all) BANG! the stranger is justified in using deadly force against the homeowner.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:09:10 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that you either warn them or give them first strike

I want you to imagine yourself in a situation, you've been in a car accident on a rural road. Your phone is smashed and your jaw is broken.  You need assistance and head to the nearest home. Do you hope the person turns on the porch light and renders you aid or draws their pistol and starts issuing warnings?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:13:45 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Didn't it sort of worked that way for Zimmerman? Kinda backwards

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:22:02 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Thank heavens they also don't act like your hero... or every time someone knocks on a door at night they will get a stomach full of lead if they don't stop after three challenges.


What I'd be curious to see is what happens legally when a stranger knocks on someones door, gets challenged and responds by killing the home owner.

Follow me here, with the expansion of castle doctrine (unless one has up no trespassing signs and possibly even then) our welcome mats are a strangers castle. Now we order the stranger to retreat or we'll shoot but with stand y̶o̶u̶r̶ (someone else's) ground the stranger has no duty to defuse the situation by retreating. So because the stranger isn't retreating he has a rational fear that his life is in danger (we just told him so after all) BANG! the stranger is justified in using deadly force against the homeowner.

You should only post when sober.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:25:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that you either warn them or give them first strike

I want you to imagine yourself in a situation, you've been in a car accident on a rural road. Your phone is smashed and your jaw is broken.  You need assistance and head to the nearest home. Do you hope the person turns on the porch light and renders you aid or draws their pistol and starts issuing warnings?

Even with my jaw broken I would co-operate.
If he starts threatening to shoot me I would at a minimum do what he said so he wouldn't feel threatened putting my hands up for example
Not being stupid I would not advance on him.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:28:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Didn't it sort of worked that way for Zimmerman? Kinda backwards

Butch

No Zimmerman had every right to be where he was.
You forget the part where Martin was trying to pound him into the ground.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 9:40:29 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Since he refused to say anything how do you know he was looking for help.
It is just as valid to say he was in the midst of a delusion that this was his home and he was going
to dispose of what he thought was the intruder, Hendrix.
There is no way to know.
You are making up a scene that fits your preconceived notions with no facts to back it up.


WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This is precisely my point!

Human beings are story tellers, we make up stories to make sense of facts. As you point out "my" (it's actually the scene the dead man's wife made up) is "just as valid" as that of Hendrix AKA "no facts to back it up" either way.

Ergo Mr. Hendrix killed a man not because of facts but because of a story he told himself. Mr. Hendrix made up a scene that fit his "preconceived notions" AKA FEAR GOGGLES!

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:00:53 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Since he refused to say anything how do you know he was looking for help.
It is just as valid to say he was in the midst of a delusion that this was his home and he was going
to dispose of what he thought was the intruder, Hendrix.
There is no way to know.
You are making up a scene that fits your preconceived notions with no facts to back it up.


WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This is precisely my point!

Human beings are story tellers, we make up stories to make sense of facts. As you point out "my" (it's actually the scene the dead man's wife made up) is "just as valid" as that of Hendrix AKA "no facts to back it up" either way.

Ergo Mr. Hendrix killed a man not because of facts but because of a story he told himself. Mr. Hendrix made up a scene that fit his "preconceived notions" AKA FEAR GOGGLES!

You make that claim for one reason and one reason only, you despise the very idea of self defense and this argument is as unsupported as the looking for help one.
The police determined that the facts fit with his story.
Were you there?
Are you psychic?
Then you have nothing to back up this silly claim.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:07:08 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Didn't it sort of worked that way for Zimmerman? Kinda backwards

Yeah I know huh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No Zimmerman had every right to be where he was.

Yep, it's equivalent in my scenario both Zimmerman and my stranger weren't on their own property. And both Zimmerman and my stranger had every right to be where they were. Please remember it's generally not illegal for strangers to be on ones welcome mat. This is why I can't have Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses arrested for ringing my doorbell.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You forget the part where Martin was trying to pound him into the ground.

You forget the part where the homeowner was threatening with a gun. See my scenario even trumps yours in deadly force.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:07:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Since he refused to say anything how do you know he was looking for help.
It is just as valid to say he was in the midst of a delusion that this was his home and he was going
to dispose of what he thought was the intruder, Hendrix.
There is no way to know.
You are making up a scene that fits your preconceived notions with no facts to back it up.


WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This is precisely my point!

Human beings are story tellers, we make up stories to make sense of facts. As you point out "my" (it's actually the scene the dead man's wife made up) is "just as valid" as that of Hendrix AKA "no facts to back it up" either way.

Ergo Mr. Hendrix killed a man not because of facts but because of a story he told himself. Mr. Hendrix made up a scene that fit his "preconceived notions" AKA FEAR GOGGLES!

Mr. Hendrix was there, The dead mans wife was not so his story is better.
You are now proclaiming Hendrix to be a liar because you want it to be that way.
Since the cops were too incompetent to see trough his story ( not being nearly as bright as you are) how can you say Hendrix should have depended on those same morons for protection?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:11:28 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Didn't it sort of worked that way for Zimmerman? Kinda backwards

Yeah I know huh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No Zimmerman had every right to be where he was.

Yep, it's equivalent in my scenario both Zimmerman and my stranger weren't on their own property. And both Zimmerman and my stranger had every right to be where they were. Please remember it's generally not illegal for strangers to be on ones welcome mat. This is why I can't have Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses arrested for ringing my doorbell.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You forget the part where Martin was trying to pound him into the ground.

You forget the part where the homeowner was threatening with a gun. See my scenario even trumps yours in deadly force.


No because you forget that the homeowner has every right to protect his property, you do not have the right to
stand your ground against the homeowner.
And yes if you order the Mormons to leave your property the law will back you up if they refuse.
Arguments like yours are symptomatic of dumb goggles.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/4/2014 10:12:36 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:18:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that you either warn them or give them first strike

I want you to imagine yourself in a situation, you've been in a car accident on a rural road. Your phone is smashed and your jaw is broken.  You need assistance and head to the nearest home. Do you hope the person turns on the porch light and renders you aid or draws their pistol and starts issuing warnings?

Even with my jaw broken I would co-operate.
If he starts threatening to shoot me I would at a minimum do what he said so he wouldn't feel threatened putting my hands up for example
Not being stupid I would not advance on him.

Sorry you're still dead. In the dark there is absolutely no way to discern any of that. You're just a shape in the dark and raised hands could as easily be a prelude to an attack as an act of surrender.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:23:38 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that if had been properly secured he would be alive.
properly secured? Since when precisely do people with dementia lose their freedom? When did simple trespassing become a capital crime in Georgia? Punishable when committed?

So people with dementia should be allowed to roam at will?
Again had he come out of the house with guns blazing you would have a point.
He was not shot for simple trespass, he was shot for advancing on Hendrix, weapon in hand, despite repeated
warnings not to.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:26:22 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You make that claim for one reason and one reason only, you despise the very idea of self defense and this argument is as unsupported as the looking for help one.

Now your making up a story to fit your "preconceived notions" AKA FEAR GOGGLES!

And it's one that doesn't even fit the facts to boot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The police determined that the facts fit with his story.

The facts "fit" both stories equally, your the one who said so. Direct quote "just as valid". Remember that? I mean you just wrote it.

So if my story is "just as valid" and my story has "no facts to back it up" then Mr. Hendrix story must also have "no facts to back it up".


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Were you there?
Are you psychic?
Then you have nothing to back up this silly claim.

Actually I've got two things, your direct quotes and sound logic.

Check and mate.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:27:20 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that if had been properly secured he would be alive.
properly secured? Since when precisely do people with dementia lose their freedom? When did simple trespassing become a capital crime in Georgia? Punishable when committed?

You do know that they commit people for dementia.
An incident like this where he wasn't shot could have easily led to his commitment as a danger to himself and possibly others.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:43:17 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
FEAR GOGGLES!



Have you heard the good news about Jesus' other flocks?



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/4/2014 10:43:54 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

A point I haven't seen mentioned is that the anti self defense people on here
have to assume the cops don't know what they are doing, otherwise they wouldn't
have let Hendrix go.
And at the same time say Hendrix should have depended on those same grossly incompetent
cops for his safety.

The cops let the murderer go because he was just barely inside the law. It doesn't make murdering that man right. The fact remains if he had simply turned on a porch light or a flashlight the man would still be alive.

The fact remains that you either warn them or give them first strike

I want you to imagine yourself in a situation, you've been in a car accident on a rural road. Your phone is smashed and your jaw is broken.  You need assistance and head to the nearest home. Do you hope the person turns on the porch light and renders you aid or draws their pistol and starts issuing warnings?

Even with my jaw broken I would co-operate.
If he starts threatening to shoot me I would at a minimum do what he said so he wouldn't feel threatened putting my hands up for example
Not being stupid I would not advance on him.

Sorry you're still dead. In the dark there is absolutely no way to discern any of that. You're just a shape in the dark and raised hands could as easily be a prelude to an attack as an act of surrender.

Wrong as usual. Backing up would not be confused with advancing.
For your fantasy to work I would have to keep advancing in spite of the warnings, remember that's what got him shot
no way I am going to do that.
Just curious you keep saying you believe in self defense if there is a real threat but you have never
said what is needed to meet that criteria.
What does it take other than giving him first strike to meet your fair and sane criteria.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/4/2014 10:46:27 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 220
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