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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:14:30 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
all he did was knock and ring the bell... you show me any account that says otherwise.

Show you an account? Do you want me to read it for you too, or can you manage that yourself?

Both of the links in the OP say Westbrook was trying to open the door.

Oh, so because the person rang the doorbell and jingled the handle a few times, that's total justification to shot them dead in a hail of bullets?

Careful Kirata, but your 'lunatic fantasies' are showing again....

Talk about lunatic fantasies he wasn't shot through the door, he wasn't shot for trying to get in
he was shot for ignoring three warnings not to advance on Hendrix.


No, he was shot....OUTSIDE...THE...RESIDENCE. And how was the man shot to death? Oh, he was shot by a guy who left the protection of the dwelling to confront the intruder directly. Having no clue exactly what he was up against, he though it was intelligent to go right to the individual. All we have is his word that he gave 'X' number of warnings before shooting the guy.

Funny how you can not seem to explain to me, rationally, tactically, or wisely, WHY, he left the house? Not one person can seem to answer this question. Now why is that? The intruder had not gained entry, so how was the person with the gun in danger exactly?

It has been explained to you repeatedly but I will try again.
By going outside he took his girlfriend out of the potential line of fire.
If he waits inside he give control over what he sees as and intruder.
You can't say he was going up against unknown forces and expect him to know that Westbrook had Alzheimers.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 421
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:18:30 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Hey man read the quote again it says weapons, not guns.

Point is, the "quote" isn't a quote, at least not from Freud.

I didn't post the quote, so don't expect me to defend sourcing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 422
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:20:07 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I KNOW the realities of caring for an alzheimer patient, and more than one, daily and nightly, so PLEASE dont pull that bullshit with me.

Yeah? Well then either your training was shit, or you never had any. If this had happened because Westbrook was able to wander away from a care facility, the family would be suing the owner, the operator, and the on-duty staff for their skins.

No Ive simply never worked in the US.

Fair enough. But setting aside my critical comment, the rest holds. Their proclivity for wandering presents a genuine risk. They have fallen into swimming pools, wandered aimlessly out onto highways, you name it. The result has been strict security requirements. Down here we call it "sunsetting," I guess because it mainly seems to happen at night when the environment is quiet and there's nothing at hand to occupy their attention. Even if they've all fallen asleep and everything seems fine, sooner or later one or the other will pop out his room and shuffle off on an adventure.

K.


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 423
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:23:04 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

The important part of the OP, IMO, is that a fellow human in need was met with a violent end. Issues of gun control and stand your ground and any other way to look at this, should all be secondary considerations to the fact that this guy should have been safe; but wasn't.

And that is entirely the failure of his caretaker (see here). Nobody else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

This guy is a killer.

Oh ferchrissake, he isn't a "killer". He simply reacted to a person whose intent had already risen to the level of being suspicious when the latter refused to identify himself and approached with what appeared to be a weapon.

K.


Being suspicious is not a capital offence!

A man advancing on you with a weapon and refusing to stop when warned is the same as him charging you.
Thus Hendrix met your standard for yourself, don't the rest of us get the same right.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 424
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:25:01 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because

1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

And you seem to fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be literate.

K.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 425
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:25:34 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you have no idea what you are arguing but just want to retreat to snark. I got it. Get back to me when you figure out what you meant.

I'm sorry you're confused. Okay, let me help. I'm arguing exactly what I said. All you have to do is just focus on that, and remember that it's English. It's easy it is once you know the trick!

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because
1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

So are we back to giving them first strike.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 426
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:33:34 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because

1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

So are we back to giving them first strike.

No, he just means that saying "Hi" to somebody who is walking toward you with an ice cream cone is no reason to shoot them. What he thinks that has to do with either the case in point or anything said about it is anybody's guess.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/8/2014 10:51:57 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 427
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:40:29 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because

1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

So are we back to giving them first strike.

No, he just means that saying "Hi" to somebody who is walking toward you with an ice cream cone is no reason to shoot them. What he thinks that has to do with either the case in point or anything said about it anybody's guess.

K.


Because that is what he seems to think we believe.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 428
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 10:51:24 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Because that is what he seems to think we believe.

It's what he claims we're actually saying.



K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/8/2014 10:57:49 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 429
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:05:40 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Because that is what he seems to think we believe.

It's what he claims we're actually saying.



K.



Do to his world view he actually believes that is what we said.

edited because I can't type

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/8/2014 11:07:22 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 430
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:23:38 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
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(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 431
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:25:18 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Due to his world view projections he actually believes that is what we said.

Fixed that for ya.

K.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 432
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/8/2014 11:26:02 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

We have to put on our big boy and big girl pants


YES

(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 433
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:28:33 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

you know,I've seen bouncers take on physically fit drunk marines with severe ptsd wielding knives and broken bottles armed only with a large mount of bravado and tight black tee shirt with the word security printed across the back dozens of times,yet I always read bout sound bodied men taking on the frail and mentally ill with guns claiming self defense..I'm not saying that even the frailest of persons armed with something like a screw driver isn't dangerous to a certain extent,but I can't help to think,why don't they bum rush the crazy git and take their chances...since the odds are still in their favor.cops,able bodied citizens,who ever,what ever happened to a good ol haymaker and ask questions later.


God I love your post, its sanity, and real world experience.

(in reply to PyrotheClown)
Profile   Post #: 434
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/8/2014 11:28:49 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

We have to put on our big boy and big girl pants

YES

No argument here. Do that. Please.

K.


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 435
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimers - 3/8/2014 11:39:57 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		I have a problem with some of the arguments being put forward.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I agree that Westbrook, due to his diminished capacity gets a pass on his actions from a moral and to a certain extent a legal view.
Ok, let's go with that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
However to hold Hendrix responsible to take those things which he had no way of knowing is equally reprehensible.
If he didn't KNOW, he shouldn't have fired his weapon. Period.
You don't get to shoot first and ask questions later - SYG doesn't (or shouldn't) work like that.
And neither shouldn't any sensible defense IMHO.

To me, a flashlight is an everyday object carried by many people when it's dark.
Unless the person is wielding it in a menacing manner, it shouldn't be considered as a weapon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Hendrix could only act on what he knew and from that perspective it was indeed Westbrook's actions that
caused his death.
So... Hendrix didn't know and wasn't in imminent danger himself.
Neither was his GF or the house or anyone else.
In my eyes, if Hendrix didn't check first, that was his major mistake and should be held accountable for it.
Westbrook hadn't entered Hendrix's house or even made any threatening actions or sounds.
And he gets to shoot someone based on that flimsy evidence? WTF??
That logic is based in the Wild West.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
By going outside he took his girlfriend out of the potential line of fire.
Ok, I'll give you that one.... just.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If he waits inside he give control over what he sees as and intruder.
Really?
Just by being the intruder gives you the control??
I don't buy that... not for one second.

One unarmed intruder against a house owner with a gun.
Nope. Not buying that argument at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You can't say he was going up against unknown forces and expect him to know that Westbrook had Alzheimers.
And by the fact that Hendrix had issued verbal requests that went unanswered should have given him thought to investigate further - not just shoot into the unknown.
If he had investigated, Hendrix would have realised that Westbrook was not a dangerous person.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
A man advancing on you with a weapon and refusing to stop when warned is the same as him charging you.
Ummmm.... Nope. Only a mad trigger-happy gunslinger would take that PoV.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So are we back to giving them first strike.
Not necessarily.
Unless you have thoroughly ascertained your position and deemed that you are at a disadvantage.... then maybe.
Hendrix didn't do that at all.
It wasn't like a brawl where a split-second decision was made (in error IMHO).
Hendrix had the time to make a fully thought out prognosis.



I can understand where Kirata is coming from though.
Had Westbrook not escaped, this would not have happened.
However, Had Hendrix investigated the scenario properly or had not been so trigger-happy, it wouldn't have happened.
One argument is as equally valid as the other.
I see these two pieces if info as two separate things to be considered and addressed on their own merit.

Sure, Westbrook shouldn't have been outside.
But I see that as a completely separate issue to the bad judgement call made by Hendrix.



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 436
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:45:13 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you have no idea what you are arguing but just want to retreat to snark. I got it. Get back to me when you figure out what you meant.

I'm sorry you're confused. Okay, let me help. I'm arguing exactly what I said. All you have to do is just focus on that, and remember that it's English. It's easy it is once you know the trick!

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because
1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

So are we back to giving them first strike.

Do you not understand that you have to be in actual imminent danger? Being worried is not enough.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 437
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:46:35 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're arguing that it's ok to shoot someone because

1) They are approaching you
2) Have something in their hand
3) You have spoken to them

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm.

And you seem to fundamentally misunderstand what it means to be literate.

K.



I'm sorry that are unable to communicate clearly.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 438
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:49:57 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Due to his world view projections he actually believes that is what we said.

Fixed that for ya.

K.


lol Thanks

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 439
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/8/2014 11:51:19 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Funny how you can not seem to explain to me, rationally, tactically, or wisely, WHY, he left the house? Not one person can seem to answer this question. Now why is that? The intruder had not gained entry, so how was the person with the gun in danger exactly?


There is no way to answer that question definitively. Untill Hendrix tells us, all we can do is speculate.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to BecomingV)
Profile   Post #: 440
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