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RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 7:46:45 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 8:31:42 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

Just out of curiosity, how much about America in general is usually studied in British schools? The reason I ask is because I've talked to many Brits who seem remarkably well-informed about contemporary American politics and culture. But I've also found many of these same people rather fuzzy on U.S. history and seem unaware of how America got to this point.

By saying that it's not important to most Brits, it almost sounds like you're intentionally trying to forget your own country's role in helping to set up this remarkable little enterprise we have here.


I can chip in here - the answer to the first bit, is that American history (both colonial and post liberation) is barely touched on. Part of the problem, and this isn't intended as a dig, is that we have so much fucking history! In the early 1800's we were fighting a European war, and afterwards we set about creating the British Raj in India (again, I'm not bragging - it's just what happened). So pretty much every topic from Ireland, to America, to India is covered very superficially.

People will tend to be moderately well informed about the current state of the US because, given the USA's superpower status, our news papers and TV news cover american politics in a fair bit of detail. The one downfall of the coverage is that we tend to get a pretty polarized view of america - which, must like this section of the boards, doesn't necessarily represent what regular Americans think and do.


I've noticed the polarized view of which you speak, although the problem may be due to glossing over the history and background. Message boards seem to be more of a place for posturing (which might have its place), but oftentimes I get the feeling that there are some who really don't know how America got to this point or why many Americans believe as they do.

The American Revolution is still important to us and still carries some measure of influence on how Americans see themselves, Britain, and the rest of the world. But if it's not important to the British and they don't study very much of it, then it may explain some of the misunderstandings I've observed.

Actually, the U.S. Civil War is probably a more pivotal event in our history and probably even more of a factor in making America what it is today. It probably has more space in American history books and carries more importance in U.S. history. I suppose that probably gets even less coverage in British history classes?



(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 8:51:13 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 9:26:19 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		"If we wish to hide behind court cases, then when the next truly horrible event that pales Sandy Hook erupts; things will not go
well for gun owners or the 2nd"

Hide behind court rulings?
We have the historical documents showing it was intended as an individual right.
We have the court rulings which confirm this but if we don't give up this right
things will go bad for us and it will be taken away?
how reasonable.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 9:28:26 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.

No in confirmed a punishment for a crime, once again you fail to comprehend the difference.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 9:30:03 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toysinbabeland
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Facts don't matter to joether. His view is based on "wisdom".


And you usually bring nothing useful to most threads.

Isn't it better to bring facts than opinion?


Funny how it was opinions that brought about the United States of America in the first place. Or have you not studied early American history? Why did the Boston Tea Party take place?


Are you saying your opinion outweighs facts?





He has flat out stated that his "wisdom" outweighs any facts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Toysinbabeland)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 9:36:08 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

This particular law is based on the proven progression of violence in a very specific situation.
It does not as, you seem to want us to believe, deprive people of the righto bear arms with the commission of any other misdemeanor.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 9:45:35 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

This particular law is based on the proven progression of violence in a very specific situation.
It does not as, you seem to want us to believe, deprive people of the righto bear arms with the commission of any other misdemeanor.

So? The fact is that the precedent has been set. The right can be taken away forever for conviction of a misdemeanor. That makes it distinctly different from the actual Constitutional rights.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 10:21:17 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

This particular law is based on the proven progression of violence in a very specific situation.
It does not as, you seem to want us to believe, deprive people of the righto bear arms with the commission of any other misdemeanor.

So? The fact is that the precedent has been set. The right can be taken away forever for conviction of a misdemeanor. That makes it distinctly different from the actual Constitutional rights.

Get out your handi dandy copy of the Constitution
Check amendments
read number 2
Glad to see that you have joined the slippery slope view of the attack on our rights
If one can be chipped away at till its gone they all can.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 10:25:34 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

This particular law is based on the proven progression of violence in a very specific situation.
It does not as, you seem to want us to believe, deprive people of the righto bear arms with the commission of any other misdemeanor.

So? The fact is that the precedent has been set. The right can be taken away forever for conviction of a misdemeanor. That makes it distinctly different from the actual Constitutional rights.

Get out your handi dandy copy of the Constitution
Check amendments
read number 2
Glad to see that you have joined the slippery slope view of the attack on our rights
If one can be chipped away at till its gone they all can.

No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so back then. And SCOTUS confirmed it again this week.

Now we just have to get to a sane set of rules in place that work in a modern society and stop trying to pretend its still the late 18th century.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 10:43:16 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		[Ed to add missing words]


eah, if the brits had a better understanding of both the war of independence and the civil war they'd have a MUCH MUCH better understanding of Americans.

I lived within a mile of the North Bridge, on the very road some of the redcoats marched up to get their first whuppin, for a couple of years, and it taught be a whole lot.

< Message edited by crazyml -- 3/27/2014 10:44:21 AM >

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 11:23:23 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway SCOTUS decided this week that the 2nd is not an individual right. The right to bear arms can be permanently taken away by a court for a misdemeanor conviction which no individual right can be.



Only you...





Can any other Constitutional right be taken away for a misdemeanor? No. So the 2nd is not the same type of right as those granted by the 1st.

This particular law is based on the proven progression of violence in a very specific situation.
It does not as, you seem to want us to believe, deprive people of the righto bear arms with the commission of any other misdemeanor.

So? The fact is that the precedent has been set. The right can be taken away forever for conviction of a misdemeanor. That makes it distinctly different from the actual Constitutional rights.

Get out your handi dandy copy of the Constitution
Check amendments
read number 2
Glad to see that you have joined the slippery slope view of the attack on our rights
If one can be chipped away at till its gone they all can.

No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so back then. And SCOTUS confirmed it again this week.

Now we just have to get to a sane set of rules in place that work in a modern society and stop trying to pretend its still the late 18th century.

So the fact that it is in the constitution does not make it a constitutional right.
The fact that the Supreme Court has always said it is an individual right doesn't make it one.
I find it had to accept that anyone would be so short sighted as to cheerfully support the
undermining of one constitutional right and failing to comprehend that when one goes
the rest won't be far behind.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 11:25:06 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		"No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so
back then"

The fact that you were wrong then doesn't make you right now.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 12:50:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

"No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so
back then"

The fact that you were wrong then doesn't make you right now.

Just me and the Supreme Court.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:00:32 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

"No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so
back then"

The fact that you were wrong then doesn't make you right now.

Just me and the Supreme Court.

And the Supreme Court didn't say what you want them to have said.
Are you intelligent enough to see that if it works the way
you want with the 2nd the same things can be used to destroy the rest of the bill
of rights or are you truly that myopic?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:05:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

"No. The 2nd has always been different. It was specifically different in Heller and I told you so
back then"

The fact that you were wrong then doesn't make you right now.

Just me and the Supreme Court.

It clearly made it part of the punishment for a crime and in no way
said that it affected the 2nd as a individual right.
It is like upholding a law that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater
and claiming that this means that freedom of speech is out the window.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:26:02 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It clearly made it part of the punishment for a crime and in no way
said that it affected the 2nd as a individual right.
It is like upholding a law that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater
and claiming that this means that freedom of speech is out the window.

If a "right" can be rescinded at an individual level, surely that means, in and of itself, that the so-called "right" is no longer a right - at least at the same level as the rest of the constitution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Yet the cases heard by the supreme court, those "rights" were actually infringed in spite of the constitution saying it shall not be infringed.
This is a classic case of the set-in-stone constitution that you hold so dearly, actually being rescinded.
Ergo, the constitution can be overturned by a government body, the very epitomy of what it is supposed to protect the people from happening.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:28:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It clearly made it part of the punishment for a crime and in no way
said that it affected the 2nd as a individual right.
It is like upholding a law that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater
and claiming that this means that freedom of speech is out the window.

If a "right" can be rescinded at an individual level, surely that means, in and of itself, that the so-called "right" is no longer a right - at least at the same level as the rest of the constitution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Yet the cases heard by the supreme court, those "rights" were actually infringed in spite of the constitution saying it shall not be infringed.
This is a classic case of the set-in-stone constitution that you hold so dearly, actually being rescinded.
Ergo, the constitution can be overturned by a government body, the very epitomy of what it is supposed to protect the people from happening.


So in your convoluted way you are saying that when the government violates someone's
rights they and not the constitution are right. How sad.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:32:20 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
It clearly made it part of the punishment for a crime and in no way
said that it affected the 2nd as a individual right.
It is like upholding a law that you can't yell fire in a crowded theater
and claiming that this means that freedom of speech is out the window.

If a "right" can be rescinded at an individual level, surely that means, in and of itself, that the so-called "right" is no longer a right - at least at the same level as the rest of the constitution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Yet the cases heard by the supreme court, those "rights" were actually infringed in spite of the constitution saying it shall not be infringed.
This is a classic case of the set-in-stone constitution that you hold so dearly, actually being rescinded.
Ergo, the constitution can be overturned by a government body, the very epitomy of what it is supposed to protect the people from happening.


You do not even realize that the U S Secretary of State has no role in the ratification of any U S law
or constitutional amendment.
Until you have a better grasp of how our government works you might not want to display
your ignorance.
PS the Supreme Court still holds that the right to bear arms is and INDIVIDUAL right.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Duty to retreat... - 3/27/2014 1:35:24 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So in your convoluted way you are saying that when the government violates someone's
rights they and not the constitution are right. How sad.

Nope. Not even close.

I'm saying that your 2nd isn't a constitutional "right" that you keep banging on about.
Something akin to what DomKen said... it's different.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
PS the Supreme Court still holds that the right to bear arms is and INDIVIDUAL right.

Yet they can take away that "right" whenever circumstances are appropriate.
That, by definition, means it is no longer a "right" in the normal sense.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 3/27/2014 1:37:40 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 180
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