Duty to retreat... (Full Version)

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MercTech -> Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 8:57:09 AM)

The boards have had the terms "stand your ground", "castle doctrine, and "duty to retreat" bandied about for a while. I noted that many considered the "duty to retreat" as pervasive as the idea that "guns must be registered" appears in Hollywood produced television.

It turns out, upon checking some statistics, that a minority of the states (19) have some version of "duty to retreat" statutes in effect. It terns out that all three concepts have a basis in British Common Law. I ran across a succinct overview or the concepts in British Common Law and thought I'd share the link for comment and flaming.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/11/20/duty-to-retreat-in-common-law/




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:07:49 AM)

unfortunately by all these "terms" are not set out, but left to interpretation by the gun owners "feelings" at the time and subject to bullshit claims when they fuck up
Mental health issues are being ignored as always
anger, paranoia, self righteousness that says your life is more valuable than anyone appearing to be looking to hurt you.




jlf1961 -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:14:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

unfortunately by all these "terms" are not set out, but left to interpretation by the gun owners "feelings" at the time and subject to bullshit claims when they fuck up
Mental health issues are being ignored as always
anger, paranoia, self righteousness that says your life is more valuable than anyone appearing to be looking to hurt you.



Okay, some asshole breaks into my home at 3AM, you prefer I offer coffee?




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:17:23 AM)

if they break into your home fuck em up.
I could give a shit
but you KNOW im not talking about someone breaking in your home





lovmuffin -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:22:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
unfortunately by all these "terms" are not set out, but left to interpretation by the gun owners "feelings" at the time and subject to bullshit claims when they fuck up


That's funny, all this time I thought the interpretations were left up to judges and juries.




jlf1961 -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:31:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

if they break into your home fuck em up.
I could give a shit
but you KNOW im not talking about someone breaking in your home




Lucy, too many times people talk in generalities.

With few exceptions, there really is no way to ascertain the threat level of someone till after it happens. Zimmerman and some others are those exceptions.

The "fear" factor is relative to environment, and going in search of trouble as Zimmerman did was not only stupid but left little chance of anything other than a violent outcome.




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 10:52:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
unfortunately by all these "terms" are not set out, but left to interpretation by the gun owners "feelings" at the time and subject to bullshit claims when they fuck up


That's funny, all this time I thought the interpretations were left up to judges and juries.

before it gets to court... sweet jebus on a pinwheel
you just dont get it
as usual




Kirata -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 11:00:51 AM)


FYI

More at Volokh: Duty to Retreat and Stand Your Ground

K.




lovmuffin -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 11:02:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
unfortunately by all these "terms" are not set out, but left to interpretation by the gun owners "feelings" at the time and subject to bullshit claims when they fuck up


That's funny, all this time I thought the interpretations were left up to judges and juries.

before it gets to court... sweet jebus on a pinwheel
you just dont get it
as usual


But I do get it and when they do fuck up they have to account for it. Just because sometimes it doesn't go the way it should doesn't mean the laws are bad. What terms are you refering to not set out ?




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 11:12:41 AM)

there are multiple gun threads here that prove they dont have to account for it.
one person is dead, they get to wriggle out of it using a wide open law that is rife in Problems... people using it as a way to get away with murder or manslaughter.




MercTech -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 11:47:27 AM)

The point was that the terms ARE set out but vary in detail from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Insisting that all apply the standards from one jurisdiction to another is rather arrogant to say the least.




lovmuffin -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 11:59:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

there are multiple gun threads here that prove they dont have to account for it.
one person is dead, they get to wriggle out of it using a wide open law that is rife in Problems... people using it as a way to get away with murder or manslaughter.


I think only 4 or 5 high profile cases have been discussed here recently and they do have to account for it. It's not like these guys do an intensive study of the law beforehand just so they can go around shooting people. The excuses come out after the fact (not just SYG) and the judges and juries will either buy it or not.




TheHeretic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 8:21:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Mental health issues are being ignored as always



Yep, they certainly are, Lucy. They don't fit the template of the gundiots, or the cheerleaders.

You sure as fuck ignored the topic on a thread specifically about it, but did eventually find time to go for a hijack. I guess you couldn't find any rocks to throw across the border?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/mpage_1/tm.htm

Holier than thou hypocrisy, Lucy. I'm sure you can figure out where to put it.




Kirata -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/6/2014 8:39:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

there are multiple gun threads here that prove they dont have to account for it.

Maybe you should try spending a little of your time reading something besides Collarchat.

https://www.google.com/#q=self+defense+rejected

K.





joether -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 3:58:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
The boards have had the terms "stand your ground", "castle doctrine, and "duty to retreat" bandied about for a while. I noted that many considered the "duty to retreat" as pervasive as the idea that "guns must be registered" appears in Hollywood produced television.

It turns out, upon checking some statistics, that a minority of the states (19) have some version of "duty to retreat" statutes in effect. It terns out that all three concepts have a basis in British Common Law. I ran across a succinct overview or the concepts in British Common Law and thought I'd share the link for comment and flaming.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/11/20/duty-to-retreat-in-common-law/


Curious how there are so many different definitions to 'self defense' in the states. Yet why have these laws if its all covered under the 2nd amendment? Last I checked, an amendment trumps state law, does it not? But if self defense is covered under the 2nd amendment, why have so many variations on self defense in the states?

Unless the 2nd amendment was never suppose to be about self defense at an individual level of the person existing outside the well regulated militia they were not apart of, right? Put another way, why have so many state laws on self defense under the 10th amendment, if it was already covered under the 2nd amendment? How many redundancies exist in the US Constitution?

Would it not be wiser to have a well defined description of 'self defense' rules/laws that apply evenly across all the states, rather than the confusing system in place right now? Would sort of help reduce the court case loads in the nation's judicial system by quite a bit. In comparison to a well understood amendment from the Bill of Rights; how often does the 3rd amendment come up in the courts these days?





Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 4:28:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

there are multiple gun threads here that prove they dont have to account for it.

Maybe you should try spending a little of your time reading something besides Collarchat.

https://www.google.com/#q=self+defense+rejected

K.




derp is that what Im doing wrong?
well bugger me I thought reading collarchat was all I had to do to get somewhere in life
[8|]




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 4:31:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Mental health issues are being ignored as always



Yep, they certainly are, Lucy. They don't fit the template of the gundiots, or the cheerleaders.

You sure as fuck ignored the topic on a thread specifically about it, but did eventually find time to go for a hijack. I guess you couldn't find any rocks to throw across the border?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/mpage_1/tm.htm

Holier than thou hypocrisy, Lucy. I'm sure you can figure out where to put it.

Bend over sweetie and spreadem
one topic in two years??? and I missed your speciality?
oh my bad
I must be severely castigated
bwahahaha
bollocks rich..




angelikaJ -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 4:38:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Mental health issues are being ignored as always



Yep, they certainly are, Lucy. They don't fit the template of the gundiots, or the cheerleaders.

You sure as fuck ignored the topic on a thread specifically about it, but did eventually find time to go for a hijack. I guess you couldn't find any rocks to throw across the border?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4324711/mpage_1/tm.htm

Holier than thou hypocrisy, Lucy. I'm sure you can figure out where to put it.

Bend over sweetie and spreadem
one topic in two years??? and I missed your speciality?
oh my bad
I must be severely castigated
bwahahaha
bollocks rich..



Will you two please just get a room already?
The way you constantly make goo-goo eyes at each other is sickening!
[8D]




Lucylastic -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 4:53:59 AM)

[8D][:D]




Zonie63 -> RE: Duty to retreat... (3/7/2014 7:40:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

The boards have had the terms "stand your ground", "castle doctrine, and "duty to retreat" bandied about for a while. I noted that many considered the "duty to retreat" as pervasive as the idea that "guns must be registered" appears in Hollywood produced television.

It turns out, upon checking some statistics, that a minority of the states (19) have some version of "duty to retreat" statutes in effect. It terns out that all three concepts have a basis in British Common Law. I ran across a succinct overview or the concepts in British Common Law and thought I'd share the link for comment and flaming.

http://www.pagunblog.com/2009/11/20/duty-to-retreat-in-common-law/



My views on this issue are somewhat mixed, philosophically. I can see that the duty to retreat would make sense from a "law and order" standpoint and the principles of what civilized people are supposed to do in a civilized society. We also favor certain principles of justice, fairness, innocent until proven guilty, and the idea that the punishment should fit the crime.

On the other hand, there are those who tend to believe that in our zeal to promote justice and fairness in our civilized society, that we may have gone too far and gotten too soft on crime. There's a perception that criminals believe they can do whatever they want and suffer no real penalty; even prison doesn't seem to be much of a deterrence. Although crime rates have actually come down in recent years, the crime waves of past decades are still relatively fresh in the public memory, along with the knowledge that crime could always go back up at any time. There is a great deal of fear throughout our society - some may be real but some may be manufactured.

It's not surprising that many people in society feel isolated, fear their neighbors and fellow citizens (most of whom also live in fear but "don't want to get involved"), don't really believe that the government can provide any real protection or justice. There may be the belief that they have to go it alone and stand up for themselves in a lawless, dog-eat-dog society where criminals rule the roost. I'm not saying that that's what our society has degenerated to (not yet anyway), but the perception exists nonetheless.

Our history and folklore often deals with times and places when people lived in semi-isolated circumstances where "law" and "justice" were too far away to be of any use to people (such as in the Old West). While it has become fictionalized and puffed up to some degree, the whole general idea of a gunfighter "doing what he has to do to save the townfolk" has become a very strong element in our ways of looking at the world and life in general.

Trouble is, it's not all that easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. In those old Westerns, it was pretty easy to tell. The Cartrights, the Rifleman, John Wayne - all good guys. Any of their nemeses were bad guys. But in real life, it's not all that easy to figure out who the good guys and bad guys. Sometimes, they all look like bad guys.









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