RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (Full Version)

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BecomingV -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/7/2014 8:52:05 PM)

Statistics are too easily manipulated for me to use them - solely - as a foundation for a position on any topic. However, the world disagrees with me on this point. That said, these are the latest numbers on religious populations in the U.S. from the CIA's World Fact Book.

"Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)"

TinkerHell - your estimate of 16% seems near enough. If you add up the unspecified, etc... it's 18.6%.

Please note that these statistics are 7 years old and isn't it interesting that atheism isn't even listed?

I think that while statistics may reflect a minority, it's important to understand that it's a very flawed information gathering process and allowances should be made for inaccuracies.

To those who think that an objection to tax breaks for religious businesses, by such a tiny minority of atheists, agnostics and rationalists, is insignificant, I suggest you consider this:

Ethnic population of the U.S. - white 79.96%, black 12.85%, Asian 4.43%, Amerindian and Alaska native 0.97%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.18%, two or more races 1.61% (July 2007 estimate)

Hmmm, the black population is about 6% smaller than the atheist population, and we have a black President. Things that make you go, "Hmmm."

The numbers are there. Now it's simply a matter of unity of action.

Also, if you see my post, I took no stand either for, or against, Joel himself. I saw his Oprah interview and he seemed to be trying to do good with his life. Other than that, I have no experience with him. My point is that he's getting flack because he's a rich guy in America with power in both business and government policy-making. Religion and lobbyists are the reason I support ending tax breaks for religious reasons. Any religious reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TinkerHell


quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

He's in a controversial business so he gets some flack. All leaders, all people of power and influence, can count on being chopped to public relations' bits. Even more so, if they are sexual beings. If they innovate, then even more stones are thrown at them.

Joel is a religious leader, the face of a movement, a Christian revolution. His ambition put him in that position. No man of such aspirations, and now, accomplishments, walks that path without knowing the risks. I'm sure he is psychologically insulated against "sticks and stones." And, if it creates a need for therapy, his business acumen has afforded him the best health care American dollars can buy.

And, remember, a LOT of Americans are atheists, agnostics and rationalists who don't appreciate tax breaks for those who profess to worship an imaginary friend in the sky.

So, yeah, Joel has detractors.


Actually there are not that many Atheists, Agnostics or sadly rationalists in the United States. If memory serves only 16% of the population identify as Atheists and Agnostics.

It is encouraging that even Evangelical Xtians resent people like Joel Osteen getting tax breaks because he waves the God Flag. If he claimed he was a motivational speaker he'd lose the tax breaks and the moral authority that he needs to run his scam. Frankly, without the "God will multiply your gifts to me" - he's not anywhere near as entertaining as the people behind "The Secret".






LorraineCA -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/7/2014 9:37:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

He is a good man with good messages and good stories and he makes people feel good…so what is not good about that?

I’ll bet those ranting against him have never really listened to what he has to say. If I were an atheist I would still enjoy the sermons…They always have a moral that those that believe in God as well as those that don’t can appreciate and respect.

Butch


Thank you!!!!!!!!!!




SadistDave -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/7/2014 11:50:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

in the forums whenever his name comes up people have nothing but bad things to say about him? Why?

I've never seen his name come up, but why should he get any better treatment here than Christ does? [:D]

K.



That actually made me laugh. Thanks!

-SD-




stef -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 1:29:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Perhaps he saved them from becoming like you and Steel.

People who can think for themselves?

Bless your heart.




Kirata -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 2:27:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Spiritually saved millions of people from what?

Reality.

True churchmen always seem to think they know what the "real" reality is.

K.





kdsub -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 9:36:01 AM)

Well we all have our personal reality…which matches no other…atheist…agnostic…or religious. We all think and believe what we wish…but we all must face the consequences when we act on those thoughts.

So true, so called churchmen, are no different than you and I when it comes to our person reality.

I am feeling much better about my reality now that I have been blessed by stef.

Butch




GotSteel -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 6:34:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Perhaps he saved them from becoming like you and Steel.

Why should you care what peace he brings to their minds... Why even comment when your lack of faith makes it impossible for you to understand? The only reason I can figure is you want to show contempt for people of faith in an attempt to be superior...well it isn't working.


Why even comment when your excess of faith makes it impossible for you to analyze?




kdsub -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:08:12 PM)

As a man of faith I understand what being saved means... you could not because you don't believe... Yet it did not stop you from making an ill informed comment...I was just pointing that out to stef.

Butch




GotSteel -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:09:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Well we all have our personal reality…which matches no other…atheist…agnostic…or religious. We all think and believe what we wish


No, I strenuously object. That is NOT how things work for all of us. When rational skeptics make comments like "saved from reality" or "delusions" it's this practice of wishful thinking that we're expressing our bafflement and horror at.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
…but we all must face the consequences when we act on those thoughts.

True story, which is why we think that having the most accurate model of reality we can manage is so beneficial and wishful thinking doesn't have a great track record of achieving that.





GotSteel -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:22:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As a man of faith I understand what being saved means... you could not because you don't believe... Yet it did not stop you from making an ill informed comment...I was just pointing that out to stef.


I used to be a Christian (haven't we talked about that before?) While not every atheist used to be a christian it is very very common. What you'll find is that stereotypically atheists know more about Christianity than the average Christian and that's not just random. Learning too much about Christianity is what caused a lot of us too deconvert.

So it's not that my comment is "ill informed", I've been there and done that, I do get it. I just wish that you'd get it too.




Rawni -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:32:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

Spiritually saved millions of people from what?

The perils of rational thought.



Perhaps he saved them from becoming like you and Steel.

Why should you care what peace he brings to their minds... Why even comment when your lack of faith makes it impossible for you to understand? The only reason I can figure is you want to show contempt for people of faith in an attempt to be superior...well it isn't working.

Butch



It looks like you have your own contempt to deal with. Log for log... they looked about the same to me, except that you took it personal and started mentioning names.

One doesn't need to be a believer to evaluate business practices of even believers, which is what many of us have done.




GotSteel -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:33:44 PM)

So while a deity hiding outside of our reality isn't at this point a testable thing once people start making claims about a god effecting reality AND their being a pattern that's no longer just a matter of faith, that's a testable claim.

I.E. Don't just accept prosperity gospel on faith.




jlf1961 -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 7:34:56 PM)

Well I have a problem with Mega churches, Jim Bakker is a good example.

Now I have to ask a simple question.

The tithe is supposed to support the church and its ministry, so where did the 10.5 million dollars come from to build his home?

Alright, I have a second question.

What the fuck does a preacher need a $10.5 million dollar house for in the first place?




LorraineCA -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:04:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Well I have a problem with Mega churches, Jim Bakker is a good example.

Now I have to ask a simple question.

The tithe is supposed to support the church and its ministry, so where did the 10.5 million dollars come from to build his home?

Alright, I have a second question.

What the fuck does a preacher need a $10.5 million dollar house for in the first place?


Joel Osteen doesn't receive any money from the church or his ministry. He has written best sellers books and this is how he paid for his house and expenses. He just recently came out with another book.




kdsub -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:06:42 PM)

I can see it is totally beyond your comprehension. I will try to explain... Being saved is accepting God... plain and simple. It makes no difference if YOU believe, agree or demand proof. Accepting God is affirming belief that does not require proof. It is accepting through faith... something you just cannot seem to understand...nor does it concern you...it is personal. When the op talked of people being saved she was stating facts as acts of affirmation... Those people chose to accept God as their lord.

Butch




ElectraGlide -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:12:13 PM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhEQW7zNtgA




kdsub -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:14:22 PM)

Not at all Rawni... it is a simple fact that if you do not have faith you cannot understand being saved... I just pointed that out. They both made comments that did not match what Lorraine was saying. I don't know any other way to say it but direct... and honestly as i always am.

Butch




jlf1961 -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:14:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Well I have a problem with Mega churches, Jim Bakker is a good example.

Now I have to ask a simple question.

The tithe is supposed to support the church and its ministry, so where did the 10.5 million dollars come from to build his home?

Alright, I have a second question.

What the fuck does a preacher need a $10.5 million dollar house for in the first place?


Joel Osteen doesn't receive any money from the church or his ministry. He has written best sellers books and this is how he paid for his house and expenses. He just recently came out with another book.




You do realize that in the early church, ministers rarely had more than a mud brick home with a dirt floor. But these TV preachers seem to need the ultimate in homes?




Kirata -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:17:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

That is NOT how things work for all of us. When rational skeptics make comments like "saved from reality" or "delusions" it's this practice of wishful thinking that we're expressing our bafflement and horror at.

Reason, however, is a beguiling little slut who will spread her pretty legs for any premise that comes along. The premise that there is no greater, non-physical, reality behind this world, let alone one that might be mind-like, is every bit as much a recitation of doctrine as the Nicene Creed. There is nothing scientific about it, because it can't be tested by a method expressly designed to study physical reality, and priestly "horror" at such "delusional" heresies is by no stretch of the imagination simply rational skepticism.

K.




DomKen -> RE: Pastor Joel Osteen (3/8/2014 8:19:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
As a man of faith I understand what being saved means... you could not because you don't believe... Yet it did not stop you from making an ill informed comment...I was just pointing that out to stef.


I used to be a Christian (haven't we talked about that before?) While not every atheist used to be a christian it is very very common. What you'll find is that stereotypically atheists know more about Christianity than the average Christian and that's not just random. Learning too much about Christianity is what caused a lot of us too deconvert.

So it's not that my comment is "ill informed", I've been there and done that, I do get it. I just wish that you'd get it too.

This.




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