RE: Are WE racists? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 5:01:06 AM)

meatcleaver,

I'm not ignoring your posts. I'm just struggling to find the time to keep up with the posts with work etc. Work getting in the way again :-)

I'll come back to this later



tzndeny -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 7:22:01 AM)

Please read Freakonomics, by University of Chicago economist Michael D. Levitt.  It has fascinating information on race in America from an economic perspective. 



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 10:00:01 AM)

meatcleaver,

Your quote:

Britain over the last couple of years has absorbed 600,000 east Europeans, the biggest peace time demographic shift in Europe. They have gone to Britain because there are jobs that aren't being filled. The reason the jobs haven't been filled is because the available pool of workers in Britain didn't have the right skills or education. I find it difficult to believe that employers who are desperate to fill vacancies purposely rejected British based workers because of their colour and prefered to wait for European Expansion to employ white Europeans, it just doesn't make business sense. The purpose of business is to make money, not to socially engineer a society. Why would a company reject highly skilled people and jeopardise their profits because they don't want to take on ethnic minority workers? This is the reason I question the stat about black graduates not being able to find jobs, something more has to be going on. What are the subject degrees of these graduates for example? Many of the increased number of degrees in Britain (and this is not colour defined, just an example) are in the arts and social sciences, subjects that are useless for many professional jobs in private industry.
 
1) By and large Poles aren't filling jobs requiring a good standard of education. They are working in bars, hotels, cheap fast food outlets - thus, black British graduates are not in competition with them.

2) We are talking about a situation where two people with different colour skin have the same qualifications and going for the same jobs - not, as you say, British blacks going for jobs, being turned down and then labour being imported from Poland. They are completely different scenarios so you are not in anyway offering an argument on why black Britons suffer employment discrimination when they go for graduate jobs.

"The purpose of business is to make money, not to socially engineer a society. Why would a company reject highly skilled people and jeopardise their profits because they don't want to take on ethnic minority workers? This is the reason I question the stat about black graduates not being able to find jobs"
 
We are talking about a situation where a business has a choice between well educated candidates of different colour skin - the business is not in danger of jeapodising their profits because there are enough graduates to fill available jobs - the business has the luxury of having a choice and the stats show black graduates are discriminated against. So, as you say, if that is the reason you question the stats then you have no real reason to question them.

4) You're line "I find it difficult to believe......." tells the story. Everytime you come back with a comment suggesting poverty/lack of education is nothing to do with racism in Britain I point out how you're points are either anecdotes, not relevant to the discussion or are very poorly made like the above point. You then seem to accept this as you don't follow it through but come back with something equally unsubstantiated - and again it is made to look like the reactionary point of view it is. You just find it difficult to believe because you don't want to believe - you want to believe in some sort of racial hierarchy. People are no different, some are just blighted by a lack of opportunity.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 10:13:39 AM)

SirKenin,

"Get off your lazy ass, stop looking for a free handout and do something constructive with yourself besides marching down the streets, waving your flags and crying about how hard done by you are"

This shouldn't really come as a surprise but I have a feeling it will do - there is far, far more to the left than walking down a street with placards and waving flags. If it wasn't for the sopshistication and dedication of the Trade Unions, who in Britain have been the driving force behind health and education reform, enfranchisement, labour rights etc, we wouldn't have the luxury to be able sit here now and have this discussion.

Your view of the left as lazy and flag wavers is purely Government spin and advertising - that's what they want you to believe because if the masses ever woke up and realised how much our Governments are taking us for a ride they would be in a fair bit of trouble - and the people who regularly point this out are those from the left. We are the biggest threat to them so they use the same old propaganda techniques that have been used for centuries - and sadly, too many people are either blind to it or happy to go along with it out of self-interest.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 10:36:09 AM)

 NorthernGent


1) By and large Poles aren't filling jobs requiring a good standard of education. They are working in bars, hotels, cheap fast food outlets - thus, black British graduates are not in competition with them.

I beg to differ. Many Poles are highly educated and have taken what jobs they can find to get their footing before seeking work they have been educated for. There is government stats on this that were widely quoted on BBC World Service but I've tried googling and can't find them but there is a similar thing happening here in Holland. In fact last special metals technician I used in London was a newly arrived Pole. I came across him because there was no one else available other than to look in Germany.

2) We are talking about a situation where two people with different colour skin have the same qualifications and going for the same jobs - not, as you say, British blacks going for jobs, being turned down and then labour being imported from Poland. They are completely different scenarios so you are not in anyway offering an argument on why black Britons suffer employment discrimination when they go for graduate jobs.

Actually I have seen this happen in government agencies. However, I have never witnessed it in private enterprise but I'm sure it does happen at times. Numbers and not ratios and percentages would give a more accurate picture of the problem and the types of work this is supposed to happen in. Detail usually reveals a lot of truths such political flag wavers don't like to us to know about.

4) You're line "I find it difficult to believe......." tells the story. Everytime you come back with a comment suggesting poverty/lack of education is nothing to do with racism in Britain I point out how you're points are either anecdotes, not relevant to the discussion or are very poorly made like the above point. You then seem to accept this as you don't follow it through but come back with something equally unsubstantiated - and again it is made to look like the reactionary point of view it is. You just find it difficult to believe because you don't want to believe - you want to believe in some sort of racial hierarchy. People are no different, some are just blighted by a lack of opportunity.

As an employer I find it inconceivable that someone would neglect their business by not employing someone who is competent to do work rather than not having the work done.
 
I would like to see a breakdown of what these graduates are trained in. Stats are meaningless without detail and unsubstantiated conclusions are made from them like you make yourself. Percentages and ratios are always a good way to exaggerate a problem, I would like to see numbers and it is only numbers that are hard evidence. People in surveys always give their own perception which is inevitably to their advantage. Law, I can understand how difficult it is for an outsider to get a foot in the door.
 
Though I have to agree when you see government agencies quoting equal opportunities you can rest assured there are no equal opportunities and this I have seen for myself over a ten year period. Which is why I nolonger automatically believe in government action as an answer to social problems.

You just find it difficult to believe because you don't want to believe - you want to believe in some sort of racial hierarchy. People are no different, some are just blighted by a lack of opportunity.

Yes, go on call me a racist. I bet I have given more opportunities to black people than you but hell that doen't count because I'm not a sanctimonious lefty!



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 10:36:39 AM)

meatcleaver,

Your quote:

I'm not convinced by regeneration schemes run by government. From what I have seen they create a parallel economy and simply bring in white professionals from outside an area and genrally fail.
 
You really have to put some meat on the bones of this one. From what you have seen? What do you mean? In North East the place is beginning to boom due to regeneration. Newcastle, Sunderland, and Hartlepool have all had major transformation in recent years and investment is flooding in - and guess what, it is because of redistriubtion of wealth from the EU - this part of the country tried in vain for decades to gain UK Government subsidies and received nothing, people were just left to rot. It took a greater presence of the EU in directing UK policy to make it happen. Quite sad really. I can tell you regeneration works - anyone Engllish only has to take one look around the North East, compare it with 20 years ago, and the transformation is amazing. It would not have happened without the EU directing UK tax into the North East of England.

Your quote:

I don't see a problem with individualism. It is the dynamic individuals that make change happen, not committees which generally suffocate anything with energy and vision.
 
If you take Britain as an example, it was the drive of the collective Trade Unions that forced change through the last 300 years. Their strength was in binding together because as individuals they had nothing to fight with but during the industrial revolution, when middle class employers depended on the graft of the working-classes, they had everything as a collective organisation. Their business owners' livelihoods, profits etc depended on appeasing the Trade Unions and Working Classes and the Trade Unions were fully aware of this and held all the cards to fight tooth and nail for reform.

Your quote:

Globalisation has its problems but it is increasing the wealth of the third world but I admit that can be dashed by the selfishness of the developed world. Trade and enterprise will take Africa out of poverty if the first world allows honest fair trade. The biggest asset of any country is its people and Africa has had its potential exploited by a corrupt elite all to willing to sell the continent's soul to the highest bidder.
 
This one appears to be riddled with contradiction. Are you suggesting the problem is in your words the corrupt elite of Africa or the exploitation by the developed world?

If the developed world laid the foundations for growth in Africa, and let's face it we owe Africa, the corrupt elite would never be able to get away with what they do now. It is through issues like a lack of education and a general awareness of politics that corruption is allowed to take place. A democracy can only ever flourish in a country with a highly educated people because without education people are open to all sorts of bribes, propaganda and general disinterest. It is only 200 years ago that ballot boxes were rigged in England as a matter of course. Not that I'm suggesting the US and Britain are genuine democracies.





meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 11:07:33 AM)

NorthernGent

meatcleaver,


You really have to put some meat on the bones of this one. From what you have seen? What do you mean? In North East the place is beginning to boom due to regeneration. Newcastle, Sunderland, and Hartlepool have all had major transformation in recent years and investment is flooding in - and guess what, it is because of redistriubtion of wealth from the EU - this part of the country tried in vain for decades to gain UK Government subsidies and received nothing, people were just left to rot. It took a greater presence of the EU in directing UK policy to make it happen. Quite sad really. I can tell you regeneration works - anyone Engllish only has to take one look around the North East, compare it with 20 years ago, and the transformation is amazing. It would not have happened without the EU directing UK tax into the North East of England.

South Yorkshire had EU money and I have failed to see any regeneration, just a lot of government and independent agencies with a EU motif on the door.

When my business was in its infancy I inquired about a grant under the regeneration scheme which had 100 million pounds set aside for small businesses but I declined because there was so many rules on how to spend the money and you had to put in like for like which meant I would have been spending money on something I didn't need for the business. I was talking to the bloke that was trying to give me this grant who drove a large Rover GTI or something, thanks to the EU funding and he said 90% of the money had actually been taken up in bureaucracy. People are still waiting for economic generation in South Yorkshire though I have to admit the traffic islands have pretty flowers in them now.
 
If you take Britain as an example, it was the drive of the collective Trade Unions that forced change through the last 300 years. Their strength was in binding together because as individuals they had nothing to fight with but during the industrial revolution, when middle class employers depended on the graft of the working-classes, they had everything as a collective organisation. Their business owners' livelihoods, profits etc depended on appeasing the Trade Unions and Working Classes and the Trade Unions were fully aware of this and held all the cards to fight tooth and nail for reform.

Ideas come from individuals and it was these ideas of individuals such as the author of the People's Charter William Lovett that inspired such movements. 


This one appears to be riddled with contradiction. Are you suggesting the problem is in your words the corrupt elite of Africa or the exploitation by the developed world?

If the developed world laid the foundations for growth in Africa, and let's face it we owe Africa, the corrupt elite would never be able to get away with what they do now. It is through issues like a lack of education and a general awareness of politics that corruption is allowed to take place. A democracy can only ever flourish in a country with a highly educated people because without education people are open to all sorts of bribes, propaganda and general disinterest. It is only 200 years ago that ballot boxes were rigged in England as a matter of course. Not that I'm suggesting the US and Britain are genuine democracies.

The world is full of contradictions, if your world isn't then you are living in a dream.

Show me how globalisation isn't making Africa more wealthy? There is a problem of a corrupt elite and western companies too willing to give them what they want. I think even many African intellectuals have come round to the view that the only way for Africa to solve its problems is to stop seeing itself as a victim and start taking responsibility for its own decisions. At least this is what comes across to me when I watch world news and not just the BBC World Service but French, German, Dutch, Turkish etc. Making its own decisions and being allowed to trade is the only way to create jobs and wealth but the west has to stop dumping subidised agricultureal products on Africa. Socialism doesn't work and it has failed Africa miserably. You keep talking about educating Africans but it becomes pointless if there isn't a sound economy in Africa because they will emigrate to where they can get a better life and leave the same old problems.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 11:19:04 AM)

Dtesmoac,

I've just typed a huge reply to your last post and was given a time out and I just can't go through all that again :-)

To keep it brief, I think your post was a half-hearted attempt by someone who, in their heart of hearts, knows the evidence strongly suggests Britain does not afford equal opportunities to all of it's citizens.

You quote:

PS on your profile I think you should go for a right wing sub....think of the fun punishments you could inflict when she disagrees with you ....... you need to think lateral and out of the box.........

Interesting idea - a sub called margaretthatcher - I'm warming to it :-) Wouldn't fancy her chances of staying alive very long which, incidentally, gives it further potential :-) Being serious, it is the last thing I need in my life.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 11:43:00 AM)

Give me the evidence rather than headline stats with no details.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 11:51:47 AM)

Actually I just remember a moment of emlightment from when I lived in east London. Newham council set up a post for Race worker and a gay sexual equality worker at 35,000 pound a post and the same week laid off twenty home helps because of lack of funding.

EDITED. Actually there was a third post at the same salary as the other two for something equally as stupid but I can't remember what it was for now.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 11:56:13 AM)

meatcleaver,

I have posted the stats from 3 different respected sources and that was without really looking. It seems we have a different view on what those stats mean and it is quite probably due to our different values, different concerns and different views on how the world works.

I'm stepping out of this thread because I came on this site to learn about the D/s lifestyle rather than get bogged down in a tit-for-tat argument about what certain stats mean. Also, I am in danger of becoming the first man in the world to die from an overdose of reading and typing :-)

All the best
NorthernGent



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 12:05:46 PM)

quote:

Actually I have seen this happen in government agencies. However, I have never witnessed it in private enterprise but I'm sure it does happen at times. Numbers and not ratios and percentages would give a more accurate picture of the problem and the types of work this is supposed to happen in. Detail usually reveals a lot of truths such political flag wavers don't like to us to know about
You're sure it happens sometimes, but not having witnessed it, you don't really believe it, and want Northerngent to find the specific research and break down the numbers for you MC?    Are you flaking on account of losing the argument with Northern?   Or just trying to prolong this thread knowing full well you in large part agree with him?

quote:

As an employer I find it inconceivable that someone would neglect their business by not employing someone who is competent to do work rather than not having the work done.
Is it really inconceivable to you?   You cannot imagine a job that pays well not being given to someone whom the employer feels has no place in his company or making professional money like his equal counterparts?    
Is it inconceivable that businesses are made up of humans whose interests are sometimes emotionally driven, not just financially?...  Besides, given enough time one certainly finds the "right" hands to do the job.   M



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 12:11:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

You're sure it happens sometimes, but not having witnessed it, you don't really believe it, and want Northerngent to find the specific research and break down the numbers for you MC?    Are you flaking on account of losing the argument with Northern?   Or just trying to prolong this thread knowing full well you in large part agree with him?



We apparently come from similar backgrounds and have taken different routes in life. I guess there is more atagonism and differing opinions of solutions between us than difference of opinion on the subject of race.

I'm assuming NorthernGent by his politics would advocate a more interventionist role by government while I think it is a hearts and minds issue. My feeling is that if hearts and minds aren't won, discrimination and related problems will only be shifted somewhere else. Shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic sort of thing.

Bloody mindedness I guess.[;)]



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 12:16:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
We apparently come from similar backgrounds and have taken different routes in life. I guess there is more atagonism and differing opinions of solutions between us than difference of opinion on the subject of race.

Bloody mindedness I guess.[;)]
I've noticed and enjoyed reading you both on the subject.   Now I have a crush on 2 more unavailable men...   Just when I thought I had conquered the fear of commitment thing.[:)]  M



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 12:23:27 PM)

Now you're playing with my crown jewels. [:D]



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 12:28:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Now you're playing with my crown jewels. [:D]
I'm fairly certain you wouldn't be able to type so coherently if I were playing with them. [sm=news.gif]  M



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 2:01:41 PM)

meatcleaver,

I guess there is more atagonism and differing opinions of solutions between us than difference of opinion on the subject of race.
I'm assuming NorthernGent by his politics would advocate a more interventionist role by government while I think it is a hearts and minds issue. My feeling is that if hearts and minds aren't won, discrimination and related problems will only be shifted somewhere else. Shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic sort of thing.
 
An expert fisherman would be proud of some of the bait you cast - this time, you won't be getting a nibble :-)

I lost the thread of where you're from - did I hear Britain, did I hear Holland, did I hear the US?

BlkTallFullFig,

Can you please not advertise me as being unavailable?! Thank you. Being serious, thanks for the compliment and if by some chance I find myself with an urge to be submissive I'll be on the first plane over to the US seek you out :-)








meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 2:19:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I lost the thread of where you're from - did I hear Britain, did I hear Holland, did I hear the US?



Brought up in a Yorkshire pit village, I lived ten years in east London, I'm now based in Holland but travel fairly regularly to Japan and occasionally to California.



popeye1250 -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/17/2006 2:35:53 PM)

Blktall, keep paying your taxes, I have a good thing going here!



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/18/2006 4:50:47 AM)

meatcleaver,

Yorkshire eh, I quite like the place for various reasons - as you say, similar backgrounds.



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