RE: Are WE racists? (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:17:04 AM)

meatcleaver,

For every annecdote there is one that says the opposite - that's why I say refer to stats.

If you are going to talk about annecdotes then it's not wise to use your own. Try and put yourself in the shoes of a black Briton rather than view the world from your values and background.

Here is an annecdote - I was brought up in a mining village in East Durham - you can imagine it is not exactly Monaco. High unemployment rates, levels of alcoholism and drug abuse. Everything I have, I've worked for, no rich parents to hand out money to me. I was lucky enough to have been born with a certain amount of intelligence. But you see, I haven't earned that, it is circumstance, luck of the draw and if I hadn't had that piece of luck there is a fair chance I would have ended up living in relative poverty to the rest of the country just like most people where I come from. You see, it is a fine line between making something out of your life and not being able to. The real point is this though - when I came out of University, if I was black, I would have had 7 times less chance of finding meaningful employment due to discrimination - and it was hard enough being white. So what then? As said, it is a fine line between being a success and going off the rails so who knows where it would have ended. If it's that difficult for black graduates the imagine how difficult it is for black Britons who aren't lucky enough to have the intelligence and financial support to go to University.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:34:57 AM)

As you have said, there is a fine line between success and failure and life isn't fair. I do question that that 1:7 chance of employment is all down to discrimination. When one usually looks behind these stats there are usually all sorts of things going on that defy a single solution that can easily be applied by government.

Which brings me back to where we started. Simply labeling someone racist has the opposite affect to what is desired. Human and particularly racial relations are complex and subversive and tend to defy social engineering which has a tendency of simply shift a problem from one group to another. Living together is a hearts and minds issue and not a finger pointing throwing the blame issue which is done by both sides of the equation.

Social theory is not a hard science, it has its place but it is not subtle and doesn't highlight the maelstrom going on beneath the surface. As Henri Poincare pointed out ‘Sociology is the science with the greatest number of methods and the least results.’



Dtesmoac -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:38:27 AM)

some time ago I was being shown around a factory in the UK by a white women over 60...at some point in a conversation she referred to someone, to his face, as a lazy nigger. My perception was that this was an appalling incident. I latter had it explained to me that her late husband was one of the first Carribean immigrants to the area, that she was related to / or close friends with, most of the blacks / families of the blacks at the factory. In her early marriage she had expereienced enormous prejudice but that with time integration had been good because "people" talked to "people", not to skin colour. A few years later I went to her retirement party and met many of her family, there were many races & cultures present who mixed comfortably together, but here were a group who by their behaviour and dress made some present feel unwelcome. It was not a skin colour or a race issue it was an arrogant aggressive attitude issue.

My point is two fold 1) when does it become acceptable to not want to work with someone or be friends with someone because of the way they behave, act, perform etc it should be a simple answer but because of the blurry edges to what is racism it becomes very clouded.
2) perception is reality and when people do not mix they can only work on sterotypes, it is not helped when all the failings of someone are accredited to their being held back by the "majority" or that those that succeed were the "token in the workforce". 

Grain, water, yeast, malt, are all very well on their own but together you get whisky which is way better.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:48:16 AM)

meatcleaver,

There is a flaw in your argument. If the said person labelled a racist was actually contributing meaningful discussion to the race relations issue then I would agree with you. Race relations discussion can be far too polarised and to solve the problems that clearly exist there needs to be real debate based on evidence.

However, the sentence started with "I don't want to tar them all with the same brush" and ended with "but I'm now wary of all of them". That is blatant racism and by pointing it out it is not shutting down debate or discussion because there was no debate to shut down. Real debate is opinion supported by wide-ranging evidence i.e. not taking a one-off situation, an annecdote, whatever you want to call it, and using that to form a general opinion.



Dtesmoac -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 6:53:49 AM)

Northerngent - anecdote helps to encapsulate an argument . Data like all statistics even when obtained from governments, BBC, etc is contradictory and is never "all" the facts. A machine deals in data humans deal with perception and impression.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:05:00 AM)

Dtesmoac,

I take your point that stats can be interpreted in different ways. However, when there is a whole body of evidence that points to the same conclusion then it would be foolish to ignore the evidence. See links posted above from respected sources and thousands of others you can find on the internet at your will.

I also take your point about humans dealing in perception. This is exactly the problem - people unwilling or unable to view the body of evidence that exists and remain in the comfort zone of tired-old stereotypes because they conform with the values that were instilled in them at a younger age. A wise man is never too old to learn and blind stubborness in the face of overwhelming evidence is not attractive.

I don't agree with your point on anecdotes. A general view formed from a one-off situation is exactly the sort of ramble race-relations can do without.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:07:03 AM)

I've witnessed a lot of racial abuse going on in poor mixed households that would make a social worker weep but should anyone try to interfer they would show a unity that would shame many a middleclass household. It baffles and somewhat disturbing but somehow they work together and who are we to say the way they live is inappropriate if it doesn't interfer with anyone beyond themselves.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:10:51 AM)

But most of the stats don't stand up to close scrutiny when one looks at the socio-economic dynamics that go on below the surface. And many stats are collected to prove a hypothesis and this I have seen in my time at the Probation Service.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:21:40 AM)

meatcleaver,

These are stats saying consistently the same thing from respected bodies such as The BBC, The Institute of Social and Economic Research, The Commission for Racial Equality etc. What will it take for people to look at the evidence from these bodies and accept that it is telling us the story of Britain? Why are people are so desperate to swerve evidence which is staring us in the face?




Dtesmoac -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:23:50 AM)

With scientific factual empiricals I may agree with you and even then sometimes the number of variables can be so great at to be + or - 35% or even higher for some theories. With sociological surveys it becomes even more subjective e.g. number of Blacks in Prison it could be institutional racism, it could be the link between poverty and crime and more blacks are in povertiy, it could be linked to the fact that in the UK poor families have larger families which are more prone to crime etc, etc, etc, . But when some people / politicians raise the question of is there a cultural aspect to acceptance of some crime the starting point for the Race Relations Commision is .....thats racism, and the conversation stops there. A better way would be for that question to be openly looked at by the Commision. I happen to remember this example from the UK papers a few years ago.
The anecdote of being stopped while driving a flash car simply because you are black is as equally valid as the statistics from the police which can refute that as a trend, during any debate because personal experience touches one person and will touch many others just as a graph saying current rapid climate change is due to mans activities is confirmed science but not accepted and often refuted by many, irrespective of the "quality" of the source.
Was it Rosa Parks (please someone correct me) who sparked Martin Luther King when she refused to stand up on the bus. Statistically it was an irrelevent number - in the debate it is a fantastic anecdote. The action of one can affect great change, the inaction of many is a statistic.  



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 7:25:18 AM)

The Commision of Racial Equality was criticised by one of its former members for collecting stats that kept it in business. That member was black but I can't remember her name.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 8:08:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The Commision of Racial Equality was criticised by one of its former members for collecting stats that kept it in business. That member was black but I can't remember her name.
Being criticized by one member doesn't cancel an agency's credibility.   I had walked away from this thread because of the same reason you and Northerngent have been going for pages, chasing tails, while I don't believe you Meatcleaver really disagree with Northerngent's words.  I also had to come back because I felt like I deserted Northerngent to try to cope with this willfull blindness alone.

He is in no way suggesting that the state should build mansions and give $150K/year jobs to all the negros, so y'all can stop worrying about his turning everyone here into a socialist...  What he is stating is that racial inequality is a fact.
For those of you who wanted some statistics, I wanted to add this link: http://www.alternet.org/story/11192/.
quote:

 Fact is, if even one-tenth of the black claims of discrimination were accurate, this would translate into well over 1.75 million instances of anti-black racial bias every single month, based on survey data. Unfortunately, it is doubtful the numbers are this small.

quote:

According to a recent study by the Russell Sage Foundation, even though blacks search for work longer and often more aggressively than whites, they are between 36-44 percent less likely to be hired for jobs in mostly white suburbs, even when their experience and qualifications are equal to their white counterparts. White males with a high school diploma are just as likely to have a job, and tend to earn just as much as black males with college degrees, and on average, even when age, experience, education and other relevant factors are considered, blacks average at least 10 percent less pay than similar whites.

quote:

Even when black students show potential that is equal to or above that of whites, they are 40 percent less likely to be placed in advanced or accelerated classes, according to the head of the College Board. Despite evidence of ability, blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be placed in remedial or low-track classes, where they will typically be taught by the least qualified teachers, be given less challenging material to learn

quote:

According to studies by the Applied Research Center, the disproportionate rate of black suspensions is the result of greater punishment given for subjective infractions like "defying authority," or "attitude problems," both of which are perceived as more threatening when coming from black students than whites

quote:

According to the Boston Federal Reserve Bank, blacks are 56 percent more likely than whites to be rejected for a mortgage loan, even after controlling for 38 factors that could explain higher rejection rates for blacks -- including issues of credit history, collateral, and income. Nationwide, mortgage loan rejection rates for the highest income group of blacks is roughly the same as the rejection rates for the lowest income whites.

quote:

In New York City, from 1997-1998, the NYPD's Street Crimes Unit stopped and frisked 135,000 people: 85 percent of whom were people of color. Only 4500 persons were ultimately arrested and prosecuted, meaning that over 95 percent of those harassed were innocent. Interestingly, whites who were stopped were significantly more likely to be found with drugs or other contraband, indicating that not only was this policy of racial stops and searches a biased one, but it failed the test as valid crime control on its own merits as well

quote:

I hardly expect the facts to matter much, as an awful lot of white folks seem impervious to them. When it comes to racial realities, the levels of ignorance are so ingrained as to be almost laughable.
Apparently, we even see them as our buddies. 75 percent of whites in one recent poll indicated that they had multiple close black friends. Sounds great, until you realize that 75 percent of white Americans represents about 145 million people. 145 million who say they have multiple black friends, despite the fact that there are only 35 million black people to go around


I know at least one dip who'll say this is all made up, but hey, I felt like wasting my time and adding this information here anyway, in case anyone actually wants to learn something he/she doesn't know.  

Forgot to speak on the love/hate relationship between the police and black folk you mentioned MC
quote:

Having worked in a Black inner city area for ten years, there are a lot of complaints from the Black population about the amounts of police harrassment and the amount of black people in prison. At the same time the communities complain that the police don't do enough to stop drug and gun crime which is largely black on black. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't
I disagree that the police are damned if they do the right thing.   The problem is that when they come to resolve black issues they don't see their brothers/children among those blacks, so they don't treat them in the dignified manner they would wish themselves treated...  On major problem is that the police very frequently ignore pleas for help from the wrong neighborhoods.   Generally speaking, if one isn't a criminal, one ought not be afraid of the police, but...     

If in fact we are not racists, than we ought to actively seek causation and resolution for the disproportionate realities in terms of life and experience.    
<<<-----Bowing out again,   M



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 8:32:30 AM)

I do not generally disagree with NorthernGents stats but I do disagree with what they purport to say and the the figures put into percentages create a far different picture than if the figures were in numbers. Britain isn't America. The Black population is only 2% and is made up of three groups with completely different histories, percentages seriously distort what is happening in society. Indians are the largest single ethnic group at 1.8% of the population and one of the most succesful groups, while Bangladeshi who are viewed by many white Brits as the same are one of the most unsuccessful groups. The Chineese at 0.4% of the population is the most successful group. Mixed race people account for 1.2% of the population and it is difficult to rate this group as to its success or lack of success because they straddle such a wide socio-economic group.

As for the Commision Of Racial Equality, at the time of the criticism it was in some turmoil and there were some serious questions that needed to be asked and have continued to be asked but I no longer live in the UK and pretty much lost touch with that story.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=273



Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 9:39:15 AM)

quote:

According to a recent study by the Russell Sage Foundation, even though blacks search for work longer and often more aggressively than whites, they are between 36-44 percent less likely to be hired for jobs in mostly white suburbs, even when their experience and qualifications are equal to their white counterparts. White males with a high school diploma are just as likely to have a job, and tend to earn just as much as black males with college degrees, and on average, even when age, experience, education and other relevant factors are considered, blacks average at least 10 percent less pay than similar whites.


Solution:

Instead of posting this on here, post on a message board viewed by a large black community "Start your own businesses then you will no longer be reliant on the inherently racist white bosses to hire you."

quote:

Even when black students show potential that is equal to or above that of whites, they are 40 percent less likely to be placed in advanced or accelerated classes, according to the head of the College Board. Despite evidence of ability, blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be placed in remedial or low-track classes, where they will typically be taught by the least qualified teachers, be given less challenging material to learn


Solution:

Instead of posting this on here, post on a message board viewed by a large black community "Become teachers and end this nonsense once and for all."


quote:

According to the Boston Federal Reserve Bank, blacks are 56 percent more likely than whites to be rejected for a mortgage loan, even after controlling for 38 factors that could explain higher rejection rates for blacks -- including issues of credit history, collateral, and income. Nationwide, mortgage loan rejection rates for the highest income group of blacks is roughly the same as the rejection rates for the lowest income whites.


Solution:

Instead of posting this on here, post on a message board viewed by a large black community "We need to balance up everything.  Start a Mortgage Loan company where blacks are less likely to be turned down by a racist white owner.."

quote:

In New York City, from 1997-1998, the NYPD's Street Crimes Unit stopped and frisked 135,000 people: 85 percent of whom were people of color. Only 4500 persons were ultimately arrested and prosecuted, meaning that over 95 percent of those harassed were innocent. Interestingly, whites who were stopped were significantly more likely to be found with drugs or other contraband, indicating that not only was this policy of racial stops and searches a biased one, but it failed the test as valid crime control on its own merits as well


Solution:

Instead of posting this on here, post on a message board viewed by a large black community "We need more black police"


All I ever see from BlkTallFullfig and from Northerngent are statements that racism exists or statistical evidence that it exists.

I have never seen either of you proposing a solution.  Which seems to me to be typical.

Are you relying on someone to do it for you?



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 9:45:58 AM)

Little girl,
I'm a dominant, why are you trying to tell me what to do?  Have you taken ownership of collarme?    If not, puhleez!

I'd like to propose a solution for you, but I respect the folks at collarme too much to tell it to you here. 

You surely enjoy hanging on to my nuts, no matter how much I ignore you.  [sm=crop.gif]  Hahaha   M



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 10:09:04 AM)

Dtesmoac,

Your quote:

With scientific factual empiricals I may agree with you and even then sometimes the number of variables can be so great at to be + or - 35% or even higher for some theories. With sociological surveys it becomes even more subjective e.g. number of Blacks in Prison it could be institutional racism, it could be the link between poverty and crime and more blacks are in povertiy, it could be linked to the fact that in the UK poor families have larger families which are more prone to crime etc, etc, etc,
 
You are agreeing with me. There is a cocktail of institutional racism and poverty that is preventing black Britons from having the same opportunities as white Britons. Do you not think it is the Government's duty to do something about this? Why are black Britons living in poverty? This is the crux of the discussion. 

I'm missing your point when you say "A better way would be for that question to be openly looked at by the Commision. I happen to remember this example from the UK papers a few years ago" - what exactly do you mean? There is a wealth of debate on race problems in Britain and solutions from regeneration in areas of high deprivation to community schemes to mixed schools to religious schools to sporting projects - you name it, the list is endless - just because I can't produce a document signed and sealed in the blood of front benchers, back benchers and the House of Lords doesn't mean proposals don't exist.

 



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 10:23:30 AM)

BlkTallFullFig,

You're exactly right. All I'm saying is a level playing-field, allow people the opportunity to thrive and they'll take it.

All the evidence points towards racial discrimination. So, a person can ignore it or try and do something about it.

Personally, I would take pride in living in a country that could stand up and say we don't care about religion, race, colour of skin etc - everyone is equal and entitled to the same opportunity.

I listen to Americans talking about "illegal aliens" and you just think what is going on? I mean calling people aliens is implying in some way they are not quite worthy, in some way sub-human.

I'm never really one to play the Hitler card but will do here - this is exactly the sort of rhetoric the Nazi party used i.e. unter-mensch to describe Russians - and what was the point of it? So, German soldiers would view Russians as sub-humans and not even wish to take them prisoner but instead annihilate them.

Personally, I think racism is dangerous and if it goes unchecked can spiral out of control. Thus, society has a duty to sort it out.



meatcleaver -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 10:45:41 AM)

Like everyone you are selective NorthernGent. I don't think I've denied racism exists, I don't take your line however, of taking headline statistics and blindly accepting they prove a point that all whites are racist except you (I assume) .

You have made quotes about Black Britain but have never said which Black Britain you mean. African-Carribean, African, Indian, Pakistani, Chineese. All come out different in the stats as to their success so what is your reason as to their very differing experiences of Britain? Why are Chineese a head of whites in most stats, as are Indians and why are other groups left behind? Racism can't be the only reason why certain groups are left behind in inner city areas when groups that one assumes are subject to the same experience aren't?



Lilmissbossy -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 10:52:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig


I'd like to propose a solution for you, but I respect the folks at collarme too much to tell it to you here. 



Exactly.  You don't have a solution.  You and Northerngent leave that for someone else to do.



NorthernGent -> RE: Are WE racists? (7/16/2006 10:53:27 AM)

lol meatcleaver,

When did I say all whites are racist? There are loads of good left-wingers who are doing their best to redress the balance. Unfortunately, we have a lot of Conservatives in our country who do their best to maintain the status quo. Its not an easy battle to win.

Chinese ahead of whites in stats? Name me a Chinese-Britain who has any influence in the running of the country or top businesses. It is a 100% fact that this country is ran by whites over and above the propotion of whites in British society.



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