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BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 8:49:26 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		Prompted by the 'Sharing' thread in Ask a Master, but the post there was far from the first or the strongest on this topic.

To what extent do you believe that an interest in BDSM or D/s makes us part of a wider community? And to what extent to you believe that partaking in these things gives us some degree of social responsibility to others with similar interests?

(From now on I'm just going to type 'BDSM' for brevity but I am thinking of both BDSM and D/s as well as kink in a general sense)

I occasionally see someone express the opinion that since BDSM is outside the mainstream and regarded poorly by society in general (or has been until fairly recently) we should appreciate the fact that we are outsiders and welcome other outsiders with open arms. The theory goes that since we ourselves have not been accepted by some, we should be ultra-accepting and less judgmental of the world in general. Who agrees with this?

Do you feel we have a moral duty to be welcoming to newcomers? Should we be more understanding of those with kinks that are unusual even amongst kinksters? How about those who practice edgy or extreme things? Is there a line?

If support is to be given, what form does it take? Should we welcome everyone equally? Should we have strictly enforced boundaries of acceptable behaviour, or is that clique and elitist behaviour? Should we tell everyone that their fantasy/practice is great so that they feel included, or should we challenge ideas we find unsafe or immoral? Will that result in a small number of respected people effectively making the judgment about whether certain kinks are right and wrong? Do we have a responsibility to educate newcomers to any extent? Should those people who have years of experience feel somewhat obliged to mentor those who desire it?

And lastly, to what extent to individual BDSM practitioners have a responsibility to break down stereotypes in the wider world? Do we each owe it to the community to bring BDSM into a positive light on a wider scale?

Long post, feel free to cherry pick any parts that interest you.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 9:01:07 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		The following is speech that I listen to recently and very much addresses the question of the OP. Hardy Haberman is a very well known community leader and I suspect anyone active in the community for any length of time have not heard of him. He is definitely a leader in the community and I think his words here should be considered carefully.


=============================================

Hardy's closing remarks at Lupercalia
by blueadept 19 days ago
Hardy Haberman's
Lupercalia MMXIV Closing Speech
Edmonton Alberta Canada
Feb 16, 2014

"Events like this are great. Not only are fun and educational, but they are life affirming and for people who are a sexual minority that’s important.
If you are wondering about that minority, I am not talking about gay men, or lesbians or bisexuals or transgender folk, I am talking about you. If the kinds of fun we have here is an essential part of your sexual expression, then your real sexual orientation is not straight or gay or bi but kinky.
Since a lot of us pass as vanilla outside the bedroom or dungeon, our orientation is often hidden. Our kink can be in the closet and though that might be a good place for storage of our gear, it is an uncomfortable place to live. Let me elaborate.
Being kinky can affect your job. Though there are laws in some areas protecting LGBT folks from discrimination, to my knowledge there is nothing that protects the kinky. That means your employer can fire you if he finds your “lifestyle” to be shocking or immoral or potentially disruptive to his business .
This also means your kink can be used as a tool to deny you custody or your children, as ammunition in a divorce or as grounds for denying you fair housing, etc.
And it can get worse.
Just today, in my country, two bills were brought up in two different states that would make it OK to deny services to people perceived to be gay. They were based on the insane notion that making public servants like police and professionals like doctors treat the public equally denies them the religious right to hate. Restaurants can deny service to perceived gay couples. It is the old Jim Crow law of the Deep South resurrected with the word “gay” substituted for “coloured”.
Insane? Nope. It is a carefully orchestrated attempt by the Right to change the framing of equal rights and make it a “religious freedom” issue.
LGBT people are convenient boogie men, and they use the fear they generate to raise money and votes. It happens outside the US as well I understand.
American Evangelicals are exporting their message of hate. The recent “kill the gays” law in Uganda was crafted be alleged Christian preachers from The USA! Their hatred directly inspired the Nigerian laws as well as the ones in Russia.
The problem is that their scary story isn't selling anymore at home. It doesn't work in the US anymore for a simple reason. Everyone knows someone who is LGBT and they know they have nothing to fear.
So, take away the scary gays and what do they have next? Those scary folks into SadoMasochism! O…M…G!
Nothing scares people like someone they don’t understand or feel they know. As long as kinky folk can be categorized as “other” the right and religious zealots will use that to drum up hatred.
With 50 Shades of Grey a best seller, it won’t take long , for the topic to make it to the pulpits and the pundits. So what to do?
Shrink back and become even more incognito? Drop your kink altogether?
I have learned a valuable lesson as a gay man. Coming out of the gay closet was difficult. It was scary and felt like I was exposing myself to a whole world of problems. And that is true, but as me and my friends and LGBT people become more visible, we became harder to be afraid of.
When we came out of our closets and families discovered their Aunt and her best friend were actually a couple, that their brother who never married had a partner that he had never introduced to the folks, that their sons and daughters and sometimes fathers and mothers were gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender, they weren't something to be afraid of, they were family.
It won’t be something for everyone, but for those who can, coming out as kinky will make it more difficult to be demonized. It’s tough to do, but the rewards will be many.
You may lose some friends. You may find some members of your family’s that can’t deal with it, but ultimately it will make things better for you and the kinky folk who come after you.
Now maybe I am preaching to the choir, after all I come from a backwards country. And maybe there is no conservative movement in Canada who would use the tactics of fear to get votes and gain power. But I have to suspect their are some.
I have found the best way to fight fear is to defuse the cause.
No, I don’t detail all my activities in the dungeon. No, I don’t tell my friends lurid stories of the wild times I have had in the kink world, but I do not hide it, and if asked I will do my part to educate and demystify the world I live in.
It is far too valuable and too rich an existence to deny.
So celebrate your sexuality, embrace it as a part of the story of your life from now to the finale, for the whole world is waiting to hear from you. Your stories and your life is to wonderful to be hidden in a closet.
(Thanks to my friend Rev. Michael Piazza whose benediction I paraphrased in my closing. He is a true Christian and a prophet of peace and reconciliation.)"

Thank-you all we had such a great time!


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 9:12:26 AM   
anniezz338


Posts: 1183
Joined: 8/17/2010
Status: offline 		I do not feel we have any more moral obligations that people who live in the vanilla world or the extreme kink world. Also as much as a vanilla world would voice objections to thing immoral and unsafe, there again we should be able to voice those issues too. Why would we not?

As far as people who have more experience than others, they have no more obligation than someone with little experience to speak up. If they want to share their experiences, that's all well and good but not obligated.

And as far as bringing BDSM out to the world in a positive light, again no one is obligated to do that. We are talking about human beings way before we are talking about kinksters. Some people are action people and some are not.

So for me, I feel I have no obligation whatsoever with anything to do with the BDSM world, which is well within my rights. It's all subjective.

_____________________________

I had become insane, with horrific lapses of sanity. Edgar Allen Poe

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 9:30:45 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't feel any responsibility to tell the rest of the world about us, if somebody asks me, I'm really fine with telling them but stressing it's my point of view... But I am not the missionary of BDSM and in general I am happy if strangers don't tell me their sexual preferences and how they like to fornicate, so I don't feel the need to tell them what I'm into.

As for sharing knowledge, yes, I think it's important to be RACK (I really don't buy into SSC) but I'm quite careful with that, I don't want to give somebody the instructions to attempt something that can be really dangerous if they haven't done the ground work and all that.

I think the same stuff that applies to normal social interactions applies here, somebody asking reasonably, sure, somebody coming and having a little tantrum that everybody is fake as they signed on last week and the dream D or s-type hasn't been delivered in the mail, nahhh I don't feel too welcoming, but then I do have a short fuse for idiots.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to anniezz338)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 9:43:56 AM   
pg4g


Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

I occasionally see someone express the opinion that since BDSM is outside the mainstream and regarded poorly by society in general (or has been until fairly recently) we should appreciate the fact that we are outsiders and welcome other outsiders with open arms. The theory goes that since we ourselves have not been accepted by some, we should be ultra-accepting and less judgmental of the world in general. Who agrees with this?

Do you feel we have a moral duty to be welcoming to newcomers? Should we be more understanding of those with kinks that are unusual even amongst kinksters? How about those who practice edgy or extreme things? Is there a line?

If support is to be given, what form does it take? Should we welcome everyone equally? Should we have strictly enforced boundaries of acceptable behaviour, or is that clique and elitist behaviour? Should we tell everyone that their fantasy/practice is great so that they feel included, or should we challenge ideas we find unsafe or immoral? Will that result in a small number of respected people effectively making the judgment about whether certain kinks are right and wrong? Do we have a responsibility to educate newcomers to any extent? Should those people who have years of experience feel somewhat obliged to mentor those who desire it?


I think we need to keep one fact in mind: we are bent, different, weird, whatever, and we felt at one stage at least outside the norm. We hoped for understanding, consideration and acceptance.

I would try not to be hypocritical. There are 100,000 kinks that don't float my boat. I actually try to learn about these nonetheless. I ask questions. I want to know about people. But I would have liked to be treated as an adult, and I would try to do that the best I can.

There are a few lines that get a little grey for me. Specifically, where consent becomes concerning. While I certainly don't believe in consent at all times, I do believe consent and trust are the underpinnings of WIITWD. So if someone here came in and said "I want someone to cut into and carve up, completely against their will." I'd say "sorry, mate, you're not into kink, you're a psychopath." The difference is your victim doesn't consent. I consent, I tell my partner I agree to XYZ, and even if I don't like it, and he does, I become a victim. I gave consent and made it irrevocable, except by a safe word, for safety reasons, or between play, there's the door, or we chat. Even though it may not look like it, choice to be where you are and in a predicament you are in is essential. We're all adults. If someone tells me they agree with real slavery, enforced, again I question consent. If you go into something like that, you have to have an out-button or it starts becoming nonconsensual. A little bit of agreed "ignore my pleas to leave" is great. Enforced enslavement because of a decision made years earlier, however, isn't. This line I draw, and it's one where I see consent as essential. This came up recently. Only one bit further, and that's murky waters: people who cannot leave due to emotional attachment. No hard and fast rule, but coercing someone to stay and not withdraw consent isn't consent. It's blackmail. But should these be met, and the person isn't suicidal, then hey, SSC/RACK away.

I see a lot of "just because we're kinky doesn't mean we accept you" and I find that somewhat hypocritical. It doesn't mean I have to agree: I just think let's be fair, nice, considerate, and treat others how we wanted to be treated ourselves. Just because your kink isn't my kink, doesn't mean I don't want you to feel as accepted as I wanted to be.

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:13:04 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		Great speech, thank you for sharing. It highlights one of the reasons as to why I strongly support rights for LGBT.
I have a belief that if something so "controversial" can be more understood and welcomed, it opens a door for everyone else who considers themself to be different somehow.

As for the OP, I'm okay if people into BDSM are not as or more welcoming than anybody else. I believe we each have our own responsibility to seek out the door and open it for ourselves and not expect others to open it for us.

I don't expect everyone with whom I share a commonality with to appreciate or like me. That would mean everyone would have to like me. Nor would I expect anyone to be a mentor just because we share that commonality.
I would find it very difficult to learn from or teach someone I didn't like.
So often I see here that people comment, when searching for a partner, they want to get to know the person before the kink. And I agree with that. There's no reason a friend or newbie be treated any differently.



(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:20:39 AM   
nyx84


Posts: 29
Joined: 1/8/2014
Status: offline 		I know alot of people believe being involved in BDSM makes us part of a community but for me thats not really the was I feel. The things myself and my partner engage in are part of our relationship not part of the community.

That said I do thing we have a responsibility to the community we live in.

Alot of subjects become immoral in the eyes of our communities because we don't talk about them. And this is bought home to me by my best friends kids (they are 5 and 3) and already I feel that they are being made to feel things are immoral when there not. Currently the boys have an obsession with the word bum because its rude now as they grow up how are they going to be able to talk about there bodies if mentioning parts of it are rude.

On of the boys, if you meet him you will get a hug or an I love you or an your my best friend from within hours of meeting. But there teacher has asked the boys mum to get him to stop being affectionate with the other boys in his class because she is worried about having to deal with issues relating to homosexuality.

One of the family frineds is a lesbian married and having a baby. But they boys are not allowed to know about this because any relationship which isn't stricly heterosexual will be confusing for them. When as children we are our most accepting of our differences. I see no way that thease boys will grow up without believing being gay is wrong.

"No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." NELSON MANDELA

And while the quote is not relating to the topic directly and neither is much of what I have said but I still feel its relevant. It is in our nature to fear what we do not understand and to hate what we fear its our responsibility not to propergate that ignorance. Do we need to force our ideas and whay we are down others throats no of course not but when we do counter ignorance and lack of knowledge we should try to remedy the problem if we can because if you do not your helping to reinforce the problem through inaction.

If you wish the to live in a society which if tolerant and accepting it is your responsibility to educate those around you. So I guess yes support should be given in the form of the knowledge we possess.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:59:44 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84

On of the boys, if you meet him you will get a hug or an I love you or an your my best friend from within hours of meeting. But there teacher has asked the boys mum to get him to stop being affectionate with the other boys in his class because she is worried about having to deal with issues relating to homosexuality.


Wow. I would be furious if a teacher said that to me. It's more than a little alarming that someone who works with young children believes that affection between males = homosexuality, even leading aside the irrational fear that being gay could come up in conversation.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to nyx84)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 12:13:02 PM   
nyx84


Posts: 29
Joined: 1/8/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders


quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84

On of the boys, if you meet him you will get a hug or an I love you or an your my best friend from within hours of meeting. But there teacher has asked the boys mum to get him to stop being affectionate with the other boys in his class because she is worried about having to deal with issues relating to homosexuality.


Wow. I would be furious if a teacher said that to me. It's more than a little alarming that someone who works with young children believes that affection between males = homosexuality, even leading aside the irrational fear that being gay could come up in conversation.


It made me mad to. And its a sad reflection of our society how can we expect people not to react with distacte/fear/hate if we allow ignorance and stupid ideas and consepts to go unchallenged. Our responsibility isn't just to challenge proples views on BDSM but anywhere that our society needs it to be challenged no matter whether its sexuality(I include kinky in sexuality)/race/religion or any other stupidity out there.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 12:52:24 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I believe that everyone has the right to choose how open they wish to be with their personal choices. If you choose to keep your choice to yourself and your partner, that's your choice and I won't question it. If you choose to be out amongst others in the BDSM/D-s community, that's your choice. If you choose to be an activist, that's your choice and I thank you for it...but...
I know for a fact that, just as was mentioned above, this personal choice...if known...can create problems.
I had to go through two different psychosexual examinations at the beginning of my divorce and then another about 5 years later because my ex was certain that my decision to live my life as a dominant with a kinky twist to my sexuality was going to be injurious to my children because "you know...those kinky folks just CAN'T stay away from introducing children to it...just like those gay guys". I thought it was B.S. then and I think it is B.S. now but I still had to go through with it if I had hopes of seeing my children, let alone sharing custody. I've had to re-build my practice almost from the ground up because of what was put out to folks in the community about what a "pervert" I am. (never mind that I was the same guy who had made many of those people well).
So yes, I tend to keep my belief in the lifestyle...at least the kinkier aspects...to myself. I share my thoughts about dominance and submission with my family and friends in a general, vanilla type of manner when they ask me...again...about what went wrong between myself and my ex.

As for mentoring in the lifestyle, if someone asks me what I would do in this situation or that situation, I will offer up my thoughts about the experiences I have had and the lessons I've learned but I don't go pushing them on anyone (unless you call exchanging ideas in a forum "pushing"). And as for immorality...that's a difficult call. There are those who would call me a very immoral person because of the lifestyle, as noted above. But I don't steal, I don't kill, I don't beat on anyone (without their consent), I don't cheat, I try to make each person I see in my work better, and I don't bear false witness. I am a good father...hell, even my kids think so. ~s~ I am a good friend and a good brother. But I know that where my sexual interests lie would result in the charge of "immoral" from too many people...and I don't necessarily mean my family and friends...that are important to my life. And yet, I am human and I was brought up with a set of beliefs. Some of them I cannot set aside. So, while I may not walk up to someone and say "what you are doing is immoral", I will look at it within my own core set of beliefs and within my own personal perspective of what is right or wrong and make a judgement call as to whether I want to associate with this person or not. We all do it, again as noted above, and I am no exception. Do I believe some things are just plain dangerous? Yes, I do and there have been topics where I have expressed that belief. BUT...people doing this are, for the most part, not only over the age of consent but also of the legal "adult" age and many times on these forums...rightly or wrongly...you run into those who are of the belief that whatever anyone wants to do is O.K. because it is "their" kink. I don't agree with that but I will not argue something forever. Don't have time and just don't have the inclination anymore. An example of this is a thread that was on here longggggggggggggggg ago...gun play. Someone says "I love to put a loaded gun in my submissive's mouth...it turns us both on." My reaction is "it is dangerous and I don't want MY insurance premiums going up because you just don't have an endpoint on your kink". That is the extent of where I want to go with the argument because so often, people are not going to change their belief because of what I alone say or what even I and a few who agree with me say...because there will always be those who say "go for it! Do what YOU feel is right!" You can't argue with that logic and I just don't feel like trying that hard anymore.

(in reply to nyx84)
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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 2:15:44 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
To what extent do you believe that an interest in BDSM or D/s makes us part of a wider community? And to what extent to you believe that partaking in these things gives us some degree of social responsibility to others with similar interests?


Not at all, to both. I acknowledge no responsibility to people I don't know, simply because we have something in common sexually and/or how we run our relationships.

The only social responsibility arises if I voluntarily choose to associate myself with a group. So, if I go to a BDSM event, it's reasonable to expect me to follow the rules and social norms of that event.

quote:

If support is to be given, what form does it take?


The only "support" I'd give is not actively trying to stop other people doing what they want to. That doesn't mean not judging, having an opinion on or even mocking them. (Although I accept the last isn't very nice).

The fear of making judgements among BDSMers is absolutely pathetic. Fluffy new age Care Bear bullshit.

quote:

Should we welcome everyone equally?


No. Well, if other people want to be happy superbestest friends with absolutely every randomer with an interest in BDSM, then fine. I'll choose who I socialise with though, cheers.

quote:

or is that clique and elitist behaviour?


I see nothing wrong with elitism in this context. If anything, the real issue with the BDSM 'community' is that it sometimes has the appearance of being exclusionary, but none of the benefits.

quote:

And lastly, to what extent to individual BDSM practitioners have a responsibility to break down stereotypes in the wider world? Do we each owe it to the community to bring BDSM into a positive light on a wider scale?

None and no. And, in fact, if people are trying to do that I get an overwhelming urge to try and fuck stuff up for them. I didn't ask them to speak for me so they can fuck off.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 9:35:24 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

To what extent do you believe that an interest in BDSM or D/s makes us part of a wider community? And to what extent to you believe that partaking in these things gives us some degree of social responsibility to others with similar interests?


No I don't believe I am part of any kind of wider community whatsoever. It doesn't give me any kind of social responsibility to others with similar interest. I don't do this to belong to some kind of community. I would be like this even if I had never heard of bdsm. I've always, always been like this. It has nothing to do with bdsm and everything to do with simply being a submissive personality.
quote:


The theory goes that since we ourselves have not been accepted by some, we should be ultra-accepting and less judgmental of the world in general. Who agrees with this?


Not me. I'm not accepted by people for alllllll kinds of reasons. I don't really give two shits about that. I do what I do to make me and him happy, not others. I don't care who judges me and as far as I'm concerned, we all judge. I know I do and I make no apologies for that.
quote:


Do you feel we have a moral duty to be welcoming to newcomers? Should we be more understanding of those with kinks that are unusual even amongst kinksters? How about those who practice edgy or extreme things? Is there a line?


No. No. No. No. People are people. Kink does not make you special.
quote:


If support is to be given, what form does it take? Should we welcome everyone equally? Should we have strictly enforced boundaries of acceptable behaviour, or is that clique and elitist behaviour? Should we tell everyone that their fantasy/practice is great so that they feel included, or should we challenge ideas we find unsafe or immoral? Will that result in a small number of respected people effectively making the judgment about whether certain kinks are right and wrong? Do we have a responsibility to educate newcomers to any extent? Should those people who have years of experience feel somewhat obliged to mentor those who desire it?


None. No. No and no. no and no. No. NO. No.
quote:


And lastly, to what extent to individual BDSM practitioners have a responsibility to break down stereotypes in the wider world? Do we each owe it to the community to bring BDSM into a positive light on a wider scale?


None. No.

Bdsm people are not special. THey don't deserve special treatment. If you are stupid in your "vanilla" world, you will be stupid elsewhere. You are not special, you are not different because you practice bdsm. If you are getting into bdsm because you think somehow you will be accepted where you are not accepted anywhere else, then you really need to be slapped upside the head as far as I'm concerned.





_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:08:46 PM   
pg4g


Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline 		[Post Deleted]

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/8/2014 10:09:57 PM >

_____________________________

Switching: the best of both worlds.

It ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. - Rocky Balboa

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RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:31:11 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

quote:

ORIGINAL: nyx84

On of the boys, if you meet him you will get a hug or an I love you or an your my best friend from within hours of meeting. But there teacher has asked the boys mum to get him to stop being affectionate with the other boys in his class because she is worried about having to deal with issues relating to homosexuality.


Wow. I would be furious if a teacher said that to me. It's more than a little alarming that someone who works with young children believes that affection between males = homosexuality, even leading aside the irrational fear that being gay could come up in conversation.


It's not just teachers, it's grandparents, it's other kids mimicking their parents, it's anyone capable of having a bias and wielding it. You may have heard me mention my son before, that he is autistic. He possesses a simplistic view of how people should be able to express themselves and their positive feelings, and I very much appreciate his sentiment. If another boy in his class at school gives him a compliment, he thinks nothing of hugging as a positive response and show of appreciation. But then his teachers look at him funny. They feel the need to tell me to "watch out" for his behaviour. I ask them why. They pause, and then their training kicks in and they say it's about personal space, but I'm the son of a preacher man. My father was a minister for years. I know the look I'm getting when someone wants me to understand that "gay behaviour" is wrong and must be quashed.

My own parents are more bald faced about it. They tell me that they don't want my son to grow up thinking such behaviour is acceptable, because they don't want a gay grandson. I pointedly shoot back whenever this comes up, "So what if he was, does he stop being your grandson?" My father's stance is that he could be trained straight, my mother just mumbles and won't look at me.

Having shared this, you might see why I felt the need to reply to your comment. The fact is that whether or not the behaviour is "ok", it's not condoned by a lot of people from various walks of life, and it has its negative impacts. My son hesitates hugging other people now. He looks at the teacher first. He won't say anything around his grandparents. He knows what they think, he feels the weight of it. Another burden to drop on a nine-year-old, a pointless one, and one I am sorry to say I cannot take on for him. I would, if I could. It's not fair or right, he should be able to decide what is right for himself, but social pressures make that impossible for young individuals these days, in various walks of their lives.

That is also why I believe in providing support to others as a personal rule. I wouldn't enforce it on others, it's not my place. However, I believe in giving support to others because they have the same kinds of weights lain down on them from multiple aspects of their lives. Life isn't easy. You can't live it for someone else. But there's nothing lost in giving support to someone who needs it, through general information, discussion, shared views.

Should you help others? I'd say, figure it out for yourself. Will I? Yes.

Edited because I became so caught up in writing that I used my son's name, and edited it out.

< Message edited by RemoteUser -- 3/8/2014 10:32:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/8/2014 10:57:37 PM   
pg4g


Posts: 296
Joined: 12/31/2013
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser
My own parents are more bald faced about it. They tell me that they don't want my son to grow up thinking such behaviour is acceptable, because they don't want a gay grandson. I pointedly shoot back whenever this comes up, "So what if he was, does he stop being your grandson?" My father's stance is that he could be trained straight, my mother just mumbles and won't look at me.


You know, this gets to me a lot. I have aspergers syndrome, a form of autistic disorder, and I was guilty of the same thing: being too affectionate with a couple of boys when I was young. Why? Because I didn't have many friends and I cherished the few I had. I didn't understand any social rules so kids treated me like crap. And I remember the speeches from my mother about how "gay people get AIDS, it's God's punishment, and that's how your uncle died". When I worked out at 8-9 that I was in fact gay, I wanted to die. I attempted suicide 4 times before I was 14. Seriously, this type of bullshit needs to stop.

And getting trained out of it? I tried it for years, believe me I did. If any hardliner like that wants to speak to me I'll tell them the hard truth to their fucking face!





Ok, back to nice PG4G.



[Edited to fix smilies]

< Message edited by pg4g -- 3/8/2014 11:01:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/9/2014 12:44:35 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I have zero problem drawing lines, although there are many gray areas. But someone comes here talking about finding someone to cut of his penis, roast it and force feed him said penis, I have no problem suggesting therapy. Not everything is a kink or fetish, some things are simply signs of mental illness. Will many disagree? Of course, but do I care? Not one bit.

For most, much of their kink is sexual. I support LGBT rights completely, however, I no more want to hear about how a gay guy gave his boyfriend a blow job than I want to hear it ffrom a straight girl talking about her boyfriend. What will all do with our partners sexually isn't meant for public consumption and that means vanilla or kinky. Anal sex is no longer really considered "out there," but you aren't going to talk about how your partner fucked you up the ass last night at Sunday dinner with the family, so why would you talk about how your partner tied you up and whipped you?

Am I open about being kinky? To a point, sure. I'm not ashamed of who I am. But I don't introduce myse saying ," hi, nice to meet you. I like butter pecan ice cream and kinky sex." You're gay? Great. But do you say "hi, I'm Bill And I'm gay?, of course not. But I also find nothing wrong with, "hi, I'm Ellen and this is my wife, Portia." I used Ellen Degeneres as an example because when I watch her talk about Portia, what I see is someone who is glowing with love for the person in their life. It shouldn't matter if she is the same or opposite sex. All that matters is she (or anyone) has been lucky enough to find someone they love who loves them back. What they do sexually? Not my business as long as no one is hurting anyone (in a bad way).

This concept that all things should be acceptable is bullshit. People openly express revulsion at bestiality, its quite common. Yet, castrate me and make me eat my penis is supposed to be ok? Every activity is not ok. Every desire is not mentally sound. Where do we draw the line? That tends to be an individual decision, but I think even many who ttry to take the whole your kink isn't my kink stance on these boards often sign off thinking to themselves, that person is seriously fucked up. Sometimes it may be they are fucked up but hey, its their life, but other times itts, they are fucked up and need help. Nothing in life is black and white, life is many shades of gray, pink blue, green,etc.

Yes, there can be obstacles from a legal standpoint to being kinky, and much is ignorance. But we don't have sex in front of our children and some things they shouldn't be exposed to so blatently. That does NOT include shielding tthem from gay people, or people in a power exchange deferring to the authority figure. But it certainly does mean not having others (children, family members, the general public) watch you eat from a dog bowl. Common sense.

I don't think comparing BDSM to LGBT is realistic. Kink is a choice, a desire. I know many feel they couldn't live without it, but you know what? You could. On the other hand being homosexual isn't something someone chooses to be, niether is being transgendered. As pg said, he couldn't change and tried. No one is going to choose to be something that gets them beat up, discriminated against or ostrasized. Comparing LGBT to wanting to freely fly your freak flag should be insulting to the LGBT community in my opinion. Why? Because not every gay person is into kinky stuf. Yes being kinky is being different, but iit isn't your "sexuality." Just like being gay isn't a lifestyle :chocie,. There was no choice.

Should the experienced feel obligated to mentor? That depends really. Should some with experience refuse to answer realistic questions from someone new in a proper setting? Yes, they should. Like on these boards. People ask questions from those who have experience. The experienced answer. It doesn't mean you rudely approach a stranger in a club or event and hit them with a barrage. Of questions expecting an answer. But if an experienced person is at an event and someone politely introduces themselves and asks if the experienced has a moment to answer a question or two? Certainly. To me it would be like going to a computer fair and doing the same to a computer expert. But it would be rude to whisper the questions in a supermarket line or in church.

Really, I think many people make far too much of the whole idea that the world needs to be enlightend to BDSM. The world doesn't need to be enlightened to what I do sexually with my partner.

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/9/2014 3:26:36 AM   
AlexisANew


Posts: 103
Joined: 2/10/2014
Status: offline 		OMG, so that was Hardy Habermans speech?!? and there was me thinking that speech had been written by a well known member of the UK scene. Talk about plagiarism!


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

Do you feel we have a moral duty to be welcoming to newcomers? Should we be more understanding of those with kinks that are unusual even amongst kinksters? How about those who practice edgy or extreme things? Is there a line?


Yes but it doesn't matter what community you consider yourself in, you should still be friendly. Surely that's one of the fundamental rules of life?

one of two things happen when you're new, you either stand out like a sore thumb and get all the attention or you don't get noticed at all but either way, that new person is going to have to trawl through a lot of over inflated egos before they can settle in and feel accepted.

As for those who do, what most would consider edgy, I believe there is something for everyone here. If your a spanker/spankee you will find a group of like minded people and if your edgy you will also find a group that fits you.

quote:



And lastly, to what extent to individual BDSM practitioners have a responsibility to break down stereotypes in the wider world? Do we each owe it to the community to bring BDSM into a positive light on a wider scale?



No, that goes directly against my principles. I won't inflict my beliefs or my lifestyle on an uninterested person. One of the things I have enjoyed on the scene is the discretion of others. Whilst not everyone chooses to be discreet, I do and that's why when I go to a munch and someone comes along wearing a straight jacket, I leave. I don't like it when someone tries to advertise on my behalf.

Saying that, I have been very involved in Kinkfest. Kinfest is about educating and embracing the wider audience. Anyone who walks through the doors of that event have made an informed choice and I'm happy to be their and shake their hand.

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/9/2014 4:12:19 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		In my opinion, with very few exceptions (cold-blooded murder, rape, child molestation), we are duty-bound as a community to be tolerant of people in as much as according them basic human rights.

Acceptance is another issue, altogether.

However, in keeping with the theme of the OP:

While I do not find the strength within myself to be accepting of a great number of people in this lifestyle. Just because I can't, personally, doesn't mean that someone else can't. "A lid for every pot"?

I do not engage in nor agree with a lot of things that I see in the "BDSM community" but, there are plenty of others that do.

There are plenty of people in the "BDSM community" who are tolerant of but not accepting of polyamory. That's fine. I'll pick up that slack. I also find myself extending extra effort to engage people that are more D/s-driven and not really into BDSM activity (I don't think we're overly accepted, either).





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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/9/2014 6:54:41 AM   
AlexisANew


Posts: 103
Joined: 2/10/2014
Status: offline 		DaddySatyr said it better than I could.

There are plenty of routes in BDSM we won't enjoy or comprehend. I don't want to hang out with age players. I don't want to hang out with lifestyle slaves and dominants but the great thing about this lifestyle is, people find their own like minded groups. I fit into the compartment of not being overly serious about the lifestyle. I take from it what I need and if it gives me the opportunity to do a little dominance and sadism I'm happy. The people I hang out with on the scene tend to be like myself and because we have common interests we tend to group.

I respect people for their choices but that doesn't mean we have anything in common regarding this lifestyle. I'm very tolerant of them and in return I expect the same tolerance from them for my choices. If I'm faced with having to spend an evening with those into very different types of BDSM interests than my own, I'm polite and I'm pleasant but truth is, its no different than sitting next to a vanilla person who wants to tell me all about their holiday.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: BDSM and social responsibilty - 3/9/2014 8:22:39 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexisANew

OMG, so that was Hardy Habermans speech?!? and there was me thinking that speech had been written by a well known member of the UK scene. Talk about plagiarism!




Well... I was there listening to him... And it walked like him, talked like him... So I am pretty sure it was him.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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