RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism"

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (Full Version)

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DaddySatyr -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/9/2014 11:16:27 PM)
~FR~ It's really funny, given all the hateful bile spilled on these very boards about religion and people who believe in God to see God-haters talk about intolerance and how it will be the un-doing of spirituality. You can't make this shit up or pay for this kind of belly laugh entertainment.

thishereboi -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/9/2014 11:32:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: It's also not the first time I have heard someone suggest that Obama wasn't really a christian and just lied about it to get elected. Perhaps you heard that on snopes right before it was debunked? http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp Claim: Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background. As noted above, Barack Obama describes himself as "a Christian," says that he is "rooted in the Christian tradition," and his association with the United Church of Christ began over twenty years ago, long before he contemplated a political career. (Obama was first elected to the Illinois state senate in 1996, but he has been involved with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s.) Nope, didn't hear it on snopes. In fact the one guy who stands out the clearest in my mind used to post on here on a regular basis. He was constantly saying that he didn't think anyone who was religious should be allowed to run for president. His logic was anyone stupid enough to worship an imaginary friend was too stupid to run a country. He also used to talk about how much he like Obama. When I asked how he could think Obama was a good president when Obama was a christian he said Obama had lied about believing to get the religious vote. I also heard it mentioned by some of my more chatty customers over the years. And no, I never for a minute believed they had a clue what they were talking about.

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/9/2014 11:35:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML there will always be people who find solace in religion, who are true believers in a supernatural god, who fear death... I've heard this before, but none of the self-styled "rational" folks who pitch this nonsense from the back of their wagons has ever managed to provide a rational explanation for why someone who believes that death is NOT the end of life would be afraid of it. I suppose the assumption here is that they want to believe because they fear death, but there is nothing "rational" about reasoning backwards to whatever convenient assumption happens to suit your conclusion. K.

tweakabelle -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 6:17:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML there will always be people who find solace in religion, who are true believers in a supernatural god, who fear death... I've heard this before, but none of the self-styled "rational" folks who pitch this nonsense from the back of their wagons has ever managed to provide a rational explanation for why someone who believes that death is NOT the end of life would be afraid of it. I suppose the assumption here is that they want to believe because they fear death, but there is nothing "rational" about reasoning backwards to whatever convenient assumption happens to suit your conclusion. K. The relationship between various religions and death might be more complex than this post allows for. For all of us, death is a step into the unknown and the unknown carries with it a range of fears and neuroses for humans. Among many other promises, religions offer the faithful a means of 'managing' death or if you prefer, a means of assuaging the fear of the unknown/death by the promise of an afterlife. The appeal of this offer to those of us who fear death is self evident. This option is not available to non-believers. The effect of this promise can be far reaching. In some circumstances, it alters the relationship between an individual believer and life/death so comprehensively that the believer seeks out death in anticipation of the promised reward of an 'eternal afterlife' - suicide bombers are one contemporary (and extreme) case in point - over-riding the instinctive impulse of self preservation. The social effects of this promise can be far reaching too. The different value placed on temporal life by those who see death as a beginning and not an end lends itself to social stresses. Again suicide bombers are a case in point, albeit an extreme one. The potent mix of their absolutist religious belief systems and their disregard for their own lives (and the consequent devaulation of the lives of others) can lead to very undesirable outcomes. It is no surprise to realise that such stresses to the social order fuel the views outlined in the OP.

chatterbox24 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 6:39:01 AM)
I am not afraid to die here, but I do fear the way I might die. I also sometimes have a fear of dying to soon because I have young children, and I definitely am not ready to die. I try not to think about it, and I am successful usually. To discuss it then it makes me think of things that I still need to work on, such as not having any fear and having faith it will work out as it should. It is all a process. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML there will always be people who find solace in religion, who are true believers in a supernatural god, who fear death... I've heard this before, but none of the self-styled "rational" folks who pitch this nonsense from the back of their wagons has ever managed to provide a rational explanation for why someone who believes that death is NOT the end of life would be afraid of it. I suppose the assumption here is that they want to believe because they fear death, but there is nothing "rational" about reasoning backwards to whatever convenient assumption happens to suit your conclusion. K.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 6:51:50 AM)
We've had threads before about how people "need" religion. I am one of those people who believes that a certain percentage of people (pick a number) will always need religion. And therefore, regardless of whether I, personally, need it in my life to be a good person, regardless of whether I feel religion causes harm in the world in other ways, religion is always going to be with us. The best we can do is to try and have a dialogue about how to minimize the ill effects on society as a whole (the imposition of religious rules on the secular, wars waged in the name of religion, etc.) But even then, in my experience in life, most of the truly religious are not really interested in playing well with others, because they believe they are the only ones with the right answer. That type of entitlement doesn't lend itself to cooperative society building. In other words, we are due for more of the same…... I wish I could be less pessimistic, but I see no evidence pointing the other direction. [sm=2cents.gif]

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 6:57:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I am not afraid to die here, but I do fear the way I might die. I also sometimes have a fear of dying to soon because I have young children, and I definitely am not ready to die. I try not to think about it, and I am successful usually. To discuss it then it makes me think of things that I still need to work on, such as not having any fear and having faith it will work out as it should. It is all a process. Well, my only comment would be that I think there's a difference between being afraid of dying in an awful way, or leaving one's children without a mother, or not being able to finish something important, and being afraid of death per se. K.

chatterbox24 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 6:57:57 AM)
Unfortunately, this is a probable event to happen. Not pleasant to talk about, but according to either myth or fact, depending on what you believe, religion will disappear off the face of the earth, along with the believers at some point in time. I would like to believe it not true. quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes Un-drifting, and making my point DIRECTLY to the OP's title: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" Nope. Religion will simply disappear. Might be an historical artifact, as is the study of the Egyptian Ra. Give it (the peoples of the book) 10,000 years and report back, okay? ETA: It's ALBERT (not Robert) Ellis.

chatterbox24 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 7:00:24 AM)
Your a pretty cool guy K, thank you. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I am not afraid to die here, but I do fear the way I might die. I also sometimes have a fear of dying to soon because I have young children, and I definitely am not ready to die. I try not to think about it, and I am successful usually. To discuss it then it makes me think of things that I still need to work on, such as not having any fear and having faith it will work out as it should. It is all a process. Well, my only comment would be that I think there's a difference between being afraid of dying in an awful way, or leaving one's children without a mother, or not being able to finish something important, and being afraid of death per se. K.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 7:10:15 AM)
p.s. I should just add that when I say people "need" religion, it doesn't really mean they need a specific religion as it exists today. My comments assume that religions come and go, transform themselves, etc. etc. etc. It is pointless to talk about how some religions "died" out in the past, so therefore, religion as a whole will "die" out. NO. The religions that "died" out (many by decree - they were simply replaced by something else because a powerful political leader demanded it), were generally replaced by something that is religion. And in the few places where religion was banned by the state (e.g., many Communist countries historically) religion just went underground, and then re-emerged as certain restrictions lifted. The idea that a thousand years from now there will be nothing in existence that can be called "religion" is sadly misplaced. People's need for it is so strong it will not die out. Again, our only hope is to keep up the dialogue about how to minimize the ill effects of religion on a pluralist society. I do believe the relative political importance of religion IS something that can change over time. [sm=2cents.gif]

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 7:28:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 according to either myth or fact, depending on what you believe, religion will disappear off the face of the earth... Well we're working at it... There will come a time when... the pious will be deemed insane, the impious wise; the madman will be thought a brave man, and the wicked will be esteemed as good. As for the soul, and the belief that it is immortal by nature, or may hope to attain to immortality, as I have taught you; all this they will mock, and even persuade themselves that it is false. ~The Lament of Hermes K.

tweakabelle -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 8:13:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess We've had threads before about how people "need" religion. I am one of those people who believes that a certain percentage of people (pick a number) will always need religion. And therefore, regardless of whether I, personally, need it in my life to be a good person, regardless of whether I feel religion causes harm in the world in other ways, religion is always going to be with us. The best we can do is to try and have a dialogue about how to minimize the ill effects on society as a whole (the imposition of religious rules on the secular, wars waged in the name of religion, etc.) But even then, in my experience in life, most of the truly religious are not really interested in playing well with others, because they believe they are the only ones with the right answer. That type of entitlement doesn't lend itself to cooperative society building. In other words, we are due for more of the same…... I wish I could be less pessimistic, but I see no evidence pointing the other direction. [sm=2cents.gif] Yes. I suspect that you are correct and that there will always be those who need religion, and that many of the religiously minded citizens of our various countries will always put their religious beliefs ahead of their social obligations. I don't share your pessimism however. In most Western countries, the trend has been that more highly educated the general populace is, the less religiously inclined it is. Ireland is a good example of this trend. (The US appears to be somewhat of an exception to this trend). So, as time goes by the ability of the religious to impose their beliefs on the rest of us is diminished. These attempts will never disappear totally - indeed there are areas of social policy where religions contribute positively and their contribution should therefore be welcomed. But on the whole, I don't see any reason to suppose that this trend will be stopped or reversed. In line with this trend, it may be that increasingly religous belief and obervance will be seen more as part of the personal private sphere rather than the public social sphere. So I doubt that religion will ever become totally unacceptable as per the OP. But I do see it as becoming less and less relevant and influential as time goes by.

vincentML -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 8:58:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML there will always be people who find solace in religion, who are true believers in a supernatural god, who fear death... I've heard this before, but none of the self-styled "rational" folks who pitch this nonsense from the back of their wagons has ever managed to provide a rational explanation for why someone who believes that death is NOT the end of life would be afraid of it. I suppose the assumption here is that they want to believe because they fear death, but there is nothing "rational" about reasoning backwards to whatever convenient assumption happens to suit your conclusion. K. Perhaps you mean a rational explanation that is acceptable to your thinking. The rationality would be pretty simply a defense mechanism for coping with the departure from life and the loss of loved ones. I will leave it at that because Tweakabelle gave a far more eloquent answer to your puzzlement than I could.

GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:07:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Does O'Dowd have a point? Will religons' insistence upon preaching against sexual minorities and clinging to redundant dogmas result in it reaching its use-by date? Will organised religions have to change with the times in order to survive? Keep in mind that the problems christianity has caused Ireland in recent history and it's ongoing religious problems are much worse than what your mentioning. Ireland picked up Catholic vs. Protestant religious identities which have spawned a huge amount of bigotry and violence. Thinking about that problem as similar to racism really isn't that mind boggling.

thishereboi -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:18:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Yes. I suspect that you are correct and that there will always be those who need religion, and that many of the religiously minded citizens of our various countries will always put their religious beliefs ahead of their social obligations. Social obligation as in feeding the hungry and giving aid and shelter to those who need it? Because if I am not mistaken religious groups already do that, yet your post seems to imply they don't. If memory serves me correctly they majority of charity organizations are religious in some way. So why do you hate on them and try to imply they don't care about anyone.

vincentML -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:27:49 AM)
quote: I don't share your pessimism however. In most Western countries, the trend has been that more highly educated the general populace is, the less religiously inclined it is. Ireland is a good example of this trend. (The US appears to be somewhat of an exception to this trend). So, as time goes by the ability of the religious to impose their beliefs on the rest of us is diminished. These attempts will never disappear totally - indeed there are areas of social policy where religions contribute positively and their contribution should therefore be welcomed. But on the whole, I don't see any reason to suppose that this trend will be stopped or reversed. The difficulty in identifying trends lies in sorting definitions of what constitutes religious identification. According to this data the population of Christians and non-believers is shrinking worldwide while the population of Muslims is increasing. I suspect much of this derives from the observed phenomenon that as education and industrial prosperity grow within a population the birth rate falls. In Europe then it is not so much a falling away from Christianity as it is about producing smaller numbers of Christian babies. My pessimism is grounded in the observation that religion has been an unrivaled historical instrument of control. It has a binding power, a patriotic glue, stronger than any nationalist ideology. For the far right in America the Constitution is a document of biblical proportions and so the power advantage goes to those who successfully equate Christianity with Patriotism.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:39:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle In line with this trend, it may be that increasingly religous belief and obervance will be seen more as part of the personal private sphere rather than the public social sphere. So I doubt that religion will ever become totally unacceptable as per the OP. But I do see it as becoming less and less relevant and influential as time goes by. This would be a very good thing. Just to have religion less influential in society as a whole. I'll try to tap into your more positive thinking! [:)]

vincentML -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:40:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Yes. I suspect that you are correct and that there will always be those who need religion, and that many of the religiously minded citizens of our various countries will always put their religious beliefs ahead of their social obligations. Social obligation as in feeding the hungry and giving aid and shelter to those who need it? Because if I am not mistaken religious groups already do that, yet your post seems to imply they don't. If memory serves me correctly they majority of charity organizations are religious in some way. So why do you hate on them and try to imply they don't care about anyone. hate is such a strong word and suggests an emotion you are reading into someone else's post. As for religious charities feeding the hungry and giving aid and shelter I think we should bear in mind that some explicitly and most implicitly do the work not only because they are decent and dedicated folk but also because it is a form of evangelicalism. Additionally, let's not forget that this charitable work is subsidized by tax sheltering against earned income and so the cost is spread around to all of the taxed population, not just the religious. I have no complaint with that. It is a functional process with some success. I just wish to see that credit is given to the tax codes and the largess of big government.

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:42:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Perhaps you mean a rational explanation that is acceptable to your thinking. The rationality would be pretty simply a defense mechanism for coping with the departure from life and the loss of loved ones. You have not even established and cannot establish that death is final in the first place, let alone that everyone somehow "knows" this and "fears" it. I know lots of people, some religious and some not, who have never believed that. So all you've done here is to start with your personal and unsupported belief that death is final, add the assumption that everybody fears it, and then work backwards from there into psychobabble about defense mechanisms in order to dress the pig up for a dance. No cigar. K.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/10/2014 9:42:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I don't share your pessimism however. In most Western countries, the trend has been that more highly educated the general populace is, the less religiously inclined it is. Ireland is a good example of this trend. (The US appears to be somewhat of an exception to this trend). So, as time goes by the ability of the religious to impose their beliefs on the rest of us is diminished. These attempts will never disappear totally - indeed there are areas of social policy where religions contribute positively and their contribution should therefore be welcomed. But on the whole, I don't see any reason to suppose that this trend will be stopped or reversed. The difficulty in identifying trends lies in sorting definitions of what constitutes religious identification. According to this data the population of Christians and non-believers is shrinking worldwide while the population of Muslims is increasing. I suspect much of this derives from the observed phenomenon that as education and industrial prosperity grow within a population the birth rate falls. In Europe then it is not so much a falling away from Christianity as it is about producing smaller numbers of Christian babies. My pessimism is grounded in the observation that religion has been an unrivaled historical instrument of control. It has a binding power, a patriotic glue, stronger than any nationalist ideology. For the far right in America the Constitution is a document of biblical proportions and so the power advantage goes to those who successfully equate Christianity with Patriotism. I do think Islam is currently going through growing pains that other religions have already been through (Spanish Inquisition, anyone?) So I do think the dogmatism that it is currently experiencing will, in fact, lessen over time, as it has for other mature religions. And after that maturation, one will be left with a smaller group of more orthodox, but they will not be part of mainstream Islam. Now, whether our little planet will actually survive this evolution is not entirely clear [&:]

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