RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism"

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 12:51:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml [ED to fix my idiotic wording] Forgive me Yachtie, I'm not completely clear about what you meant by... quote: Does that include religious ceremonies or are you solely pointing to State law as to gay marriage as legal? Where you asking tweakabelle to clarify whether she simply supported legal gay marriage or whether she wanted religious groups to be required to perform gay marriages? Yes, you are quite clear. Thanks. Obviously I can't answer for tweakabelle, but here's where I am. Getting the right to have a civil partnership is certainly the most important thing to me, as that affects things like inheritance rights, insurance, taxation etc. So allowing same sex couples to enjoy the same legal protections as opposite sex couples seems like a very big step in the right direction, and it is. Where it comes to obliging religious groups to accept same sex marriage, we obviously get into really gnarly territory since we're touching on people's beliefs. In the interests of disclosure, I would say that ultimately, yes I would like to see religious groups offering the same access to the different sacraments (or their equivalents) to same sex couples as to opposite sex couples. I am honestly not certain that legally enforcing equality in the context of religious groups is the best way to address this inequality, but I can see some pretty strong arguments for doing so. If you believe that it is wrong to treat same sex couples differently then what reason can you give for arguing that they should not be allowed equal status in religious ceremonies/sacraments? If it is against the law to discriminate against people on the grounds of gender, disability, or sexual orientation then why should one group claim exemption? I believe that prejudice (which in this case can reasonably be described as homophobia) is the reason people oppose gay marriage. I believe that because ultimately the reason for their opposition boils down to a belief that it's wrong to be gay. The tactic by some groups to support civil partnership while opposing marriage is an interesting one, because it is an attempt to cloak that prejudice by claiming a) I am not prejudiced so support civil partnership while believing b) God would not approve of gay people making a formal faith-based commitment to one another. The arguments that are put up against gay marriage then begin to decay into the absurd. The first, and one of the most ludicrous, is the "I'll be forced to marry someone of the same sex". This is a particularly stupid argument because I'm pretty sure that no-one who promotes the right of people of the same sex to marry has ever suggested that hetero people should ever be forced into same sex marriage. Lets face it, that would be as prejudiced as forcing people into opposite sex marriage. Then there's the "pollution" argument... which goes along the lines of "If we allow this to happen our kids might end up gay!". I can't help thinking in this case.. if you're not prejudiced against gay people, why would it be a problem if your kids ended up gay? Ultimately, I believe that religious opposition to same sex marriage is a question of prejudice. I am open to the idea that someone might be able to make an argument against same sex marriage that doesn't essentially boil down to prejudice, but I haven't heard one yet.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:06:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Ultimately, I believe that religious opposition to same sex marriage is a question of prejudice. I am open to the idea that someone might be able to make an argument against same sex marriage that doesn't essentially boil down to prejudice, but I haven't heard one yet. If a religious precept states that "same sex" (and therefore marriage) is ~abhorrent (*Biblical does), is one who adheres to that precept doing so out of prejudice or obedience? You are certainly free to argue that such precept is itself one of prejudice, but can you really argue that obedience to it is due to prejudice and not obedience itself? * this is to say, God's game, God's rules. This is a different point you are making from the question above - yes I would like to see religious groups offering the same access to the different sacraments (or their equivalents) to same sex couples as to opposite sex couples. Again, Biblical, *. Such offering would be in opposition to *. There is no way around that other than to be in opposition from a Biblical point of view. I'm not referencing any other religious position.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:24:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Ultimately, I believe that religious opposition to same sex marriage is a question of prejudice. I am open to the idea that someone might be able to make an argument against same sex marriage that doesn't essentially boil down to prejudice, but I haven't heard one yet. If a religious precept states that "same sex" (and therefore marriage) is ~abhorrent (**Biblical does), is one who adheres to that precept doing so out of prejudice or obedience? You are certainly free to argue that such precept is itself one of prejudice, but can you really argue that obedience to it is due to prejudice and not obedience itself? I think I really can make that argument. I'm not saying it's a guaranteed winner, but I think that for many people the insistence that their god is homophobic, and as follower of their god they should be too is something of a shield for their own homophobia. Not least, because plenty of christians don't seem to have much trouble finding a way to support same sex marriage and still feel in touch with what they believe Jesus wanted them to do, and how he wanted them to live. I don't think obedience to a religious doctrine is a valid excuse for prejudice, and I can think of many examples in history where "I was acting under orders from above" was attempted as an excuse for all sorts of unpleasantness. quote:* *** this is to say, God's game, God's rules. Except that, most religious people acknowledge that many of the "rules" their religion imposes are pretty much man-made. In most cases, they're "man's" rules. Now, if a person wants to take the hard line and claim that the biblical texts are the actual, solid, word of god then we're all going to have to wind our sleeves up because the clock's going to need a whole lot of winding back.

GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:32:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie If a religious precept states that "same sex" (and therefore marriage) is ~abhorrent (***Biblical does), is one who adheres to that precept doing so out of prejudice or obedience? If your god is homophobic it's because your homophobic.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:50:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml plenty of christians don't seem to have much trouble finding a way to support same sex marriage and still feel in touch with what they believe Jesus wanted them to do, and how he wanted them to live. I don't think obedience to a religious doctrine is a valid excuse for prejudice, and I can think of many examples in history where "I was acting under orders from above" was attempted as an excuse for all sorts of unpleasantness. Now, if a person wants to take the hard line and claim that the biblical texts are the actual, solid, word of god then we're all going to have to wind our sleeves up because the clock's going to need a whole lot of winding back. Therein is the rub that is argued. Backing upward through your thought train, the biblical text either is or is not. Yes, were down to a form of fundamentalism. Also, what I quoted in color opens that argumentative can of worms which is not really part of the question or the discussion. It's off point and would send us off into never-never land It boils down to, God either IS or IS NOT. If He is, then it's God's Game, God's Rules. Therefore, obedience itself is not prejudicial from a rules following perspective. Christians who wish to argue otherwise than God's Game, God's Rules have a fundamental problem pointedly understood - man's fallen nature. There is no right answer to the whole argument except one FROM a Biblical POV- God's Game, God's rules. Christians I have had such discussions with most all say "no problem" with a form of civil union which allows what you wish. But they do draw a line at altering their religious institution(s) allowing inclusion at the cost of opposition to God's Game, God's rules. In a sense one might argue that such are not prejudicial, their wanting to find a way without falling into opposition. Except that, most religious people acknowledge that many of the "rules" their religion imposes are pretty much man-made. In most cases, they're "man's" rules. Not so much the rules, but the doctrine. Just my opinion here.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:53:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel If your god is homophobic it's because your homophobic. I have no fear, no phobia, of homosexuals.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 6:58:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Christians I have had such discussions with most all say "no problem" with a form of civil union which allows what you wish. But they do draw a line at altering their religious institution(s) allowing inclusion at the cost of opposition to God's Game, God's rules. In a sense one might argue that such are not prejudicial, their wanting to find a way without falling into opposition. It may be God's game, but the rules have been changed so many times, in the light of society choosing (rightly or wrongly perhaps) that certain old testament rules are a tad extreme, that I'm not sure any claim that we're talking about "God's rules" holds any water at all. In a similar debate here in the UK, we've had the question of the ordination of women, and I will concede that there are some people who sincerely believe that the ordination of women is biblically wrong. Which is why I said "for many people the insistence that their god is homophobic, and as follower of their god they should be too is something of a shield for their own homophobia" rather than claiming that everyone uses it as a shield. As for those who sincerely believe that they have a duty to be homophobic because their God demands it. They are simply wrong. Just as those slave owners who sincerely believed that it was right and proper to discriminate against black people were wrong.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:05:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel If your god is homophobic it's because your homophobic. I have no fear, no phobia, of homosexuals. In fairness, most dictionary definitions aren't restricted to "fear of", most make mention of "aversion to".

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:23:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml It may be God's game, but the rules have been changed so many times As for those who sincerely believe that they have a duty to be homophobic because their God demands it. They are simply wrong. Just as those slave owners who sincerely believed that it was right and proper to discriminate against black people were wrong. Our 'arguing with God' has indeed been a source of our changing of His rules. God's Rules, though, have not changed at all. Question: Does there exist anyone who is not homophobic yet states anti-marriage (Biblical POV) because God's Game, God's Rules? Your posit seemingly states that all opposition to gay marriage is of homophobic nature because "God demands it". God's reasoniong for his Rule(s) as to homosexual behavior I do not know. I cannot state with any certainty that such is due to homophobia or not. My guess is not, though, as homosexuals have consistently had such a low number to population ratio. Besides, on what basis would God have a phobia for homosexuality? That He hates gays? He''s stated that he loves the sinner but not the sin. That's but one thought I have on that and not really germane to the topic. edit: from a biblical POV, it seems apparent gays want religion to embrace the sin as acceptable, even to the point of normalcy. That's opposition to God.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:30:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel If your god is homophobic it's because your homophobic. I have no fear, no phobia, of homosexuals. In fairness, most dictionary definitions aren't restricted to "fear of", most make mention of "aversion to". understood.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:37:15 AM)
[ED to fix the kind of grammar that, frankly would deserve a stoning whether it's mentioned in Leviticus or not] quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml It may be God's game, but the rules have been changed so many times As for those who sincerely believe that they have a duty to be homophobic because their God demands it. They are simply wrong. Just as those slave owners who sincerely believed that it was right and proper to discriminate against black people were wrong. Our 'arguing with God' has indeed been a source of our changing of His rules. God's Rules, though, have not changed at all. While, I can just about sympathize with this position, I don't think it helps us move forward. So many "rules" that used to be "God's rules" have been discarded, that I'm just not sure that we can really nail which of the biblical rules are "God's" and which aren't. quote: Question: Does there exist anyone who is not homophobic (using your word) yet states anti-marriage (Biblical POV) because God's Game, God's Rules? Your posit seemingly states that all opposition to gay marriage is of homophobic nature because "God demands it". According to my understanding of homophobia, no, I don't think that anyone who claims to object to gay-marriage on biblical terms, even if sincere, can escape the fact that they are homophobic. No matter how sincere their position. Now,I do think that it is entirely possible to be a "good person" but to be very wrong at the same time. Can I ask you a question in return? When I was at school, a South African girl joined my class, her parents had just left South Africa ( "Before the Bliks take over and kill us all"). She was in many many respects a deeply virtuous person, they were a churchgoing family, and she sincerely believed that black people weren't really human. Was she racist? quote: God's reasoniong for his Rule(s) as to homosexual behavior I do not know. I cannot state with any certainty that such is due to homophobia or not. My guess is not, though, as homosexuals have consistently had such a low number to population ratio. Besides, on what basis would God have a phobia for homosexuality? That's but one thought I have on that and not really germane to the topic. I just don't know if a person can say that their "God" would object to same sex marriage. On what basis can a person know that their "God" would object to two people of the same sex, in a loving committed relationship wishing to share their commitment with their "God"? You can point to scripture, sure. I don't think you can use scripture convincingly, because Christians have been quietly ignoring big chunks of scripture for centuries.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:50:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml It may be God's game, but the rules have been changed so many times As for those who sincerely believe that they have a duty to be homophobic because their God demands it. They are simply wrong. Just as those slave owners who sincerely believed that it was right and proper to discriminate against black people were wrong. Our 'arguing with God' has indeed been a source of our changing of His rules. God's Rules, though, have not changed at all. While, I can just about sympathize with this position, I don't think it helps us move forward. So many "rules" that used to be "God's rules" have been discarded, that I'm just not sure that we can really nail which of the biblical rules are "God's" and which aren't. Of course not[;)] as so many clearly argue it's all Man anyway. quote: Question: Does there exist anyone who is not homophobic (using your word) yet states anti-marriage (Biblical POV) because God's Game, God's Rules? Your posit seemingly states that all opposition to gay marriage is of homophobic nature because "God demands it". According to my understanding of homophobia, no, I don't think that anyone who claims to object to gay-marriage on biblical terms, even if sincere, can escape the fact that they are homophobic. No matter how sincere their position. Now,I do think that it is entirely possible to be a "good person" but to be very wrong at the same time. That doesn't make sense to me. If one is not prejudices but merely following the rules. Can I ask you a question in return? When I was at school, a South African girl joined my class, her parents had just left South Africa ( "Before the Bliks take over and kill us all"). She was in many many respects a deeply virtuous person, they were a churchgoing family, and she sincerely believed that black people weren't really human. Was she racist? I have no idea, simply because I know not her reasing behind such thought. I'm assuming she's white. Have you ever hear of the argument surrounding "Homo-sapiens Sapiens"? It's way off topic but of an interest in a way. I can fully understand arguing her thought as racist. I'd have to ask her. quote: God's reasoniong for his Rule(s) as to homosexual behavior I do not know. I cannot state with any certainty that such is due to homophobia or not. My guess is not, though, as homosexuals have consistently had such a low number to population ratio. Besides, on what basis would God have a phobia for homosexuality? That's but one thought I have on that and not really germane to the topic. I just don't know if a person can say that their "God" would object to same sex marriage. On what basis a person know that their "God" would object to two people of the same sex, in a loving committed relationship wishing to share their commitment with their "God"? Only thing I can say to that is, does God have Rules and what are they. You can point to scripture, sure. I don't think you can use scripture convincingly, because Christians have been quietly ignoring big chunks of scripture for centuries. Yes, Christians have been in opposition to God for a long long time. It's unfortunately a part of our fallen nature.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 7:58:52 AM)
That puts us at something of an impasse. Although, it's been a refreshing change to actually have a conversation here. Yes, my South African classmate was white, and she was a racist. She did come to realise that her upbringing had brought her to believe stuff that was wrong though. The impasse was arrived at here... When I said.. quote: So many "rules" that used to be "God's rules" have been discarded, that I'm just not sure that we can really nail which of the biblical rules are "God's" and which aren't. Your reply was... quote: Of course not as so many clearly argue it's all Man anyway. So... I don't know whether you're being slightly tongue in cheek, since I'm plainly one of the many, but if your sincere answer is "of course not" then what basis can you have for claiming that God is homophobic? quote: Only thing I can say to that is, does God have Rules and what are they. Alas, you definitely have me at a loss here, as I'm not a believer in God, while being respectful of those that are, at least when they're not stoning people, or being homophobic ;-)

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 8:01:26 AM)
Oh and on this point... A very wily retired Jesuit Priest, who I suspect was prone to a touch of Atheism, once tried to cause my brain to melt by saying... "What if instead of 'God'" we said "Good". In either case, I can't disagree with your comment... quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Yes, Christians have been in opposition to God for a long long time. It's unfortunately a part of our fallen nature.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 8:05:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml That puts us at something of an impasse. Although, it's been a refreshing change to actually have a conversation here. quote: Only thing I can say to that is, does God have Rules and what are they. Alas, you definitely have me at a loss here, as I'm not a believer in God, while being respectful of those that are, at least when they're not stoning people, or being homophobic ;-) Most refreshing, crazyml[:D] Yes, tongue in cheek. I have no answer for you. Not my game nor my rules.

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 8:06:25 AM)
Edited to remove post.. ... never mind! Alas, I have to finish a report, by first thing tomorrow or my boss will have me stoned for being a lazy assed motherfucker. I'm pretty sure that's in Deut too.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 8:11:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml Oh and on this point... A very wily retired Jesuit Priest, who I suspect was prone to a touch of Atheism, once tried to cause my brain to melt by saying... "What if instead of 'God'" we said "Good". A Jesuit!!! Interesting. Ever read Eurthyfro? This would be an interesting conversation, your Jesuit's posit.

JeffBC -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 9:43:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Yes, Christians have been in opposition to God for a long long time. It's unfortunately a part of our fallen nature. .. and some of us who are not Christian would see it exactly the opposite. I strive against pretty much everything in your old testament and some of your new testament exactly because I see myself as a good person. Much of the old testament is just plain horrific. It stretches the bounds of my imagination to think that anyone has ever read Leviticus and thought "Oh yeah, now there are some great ideas". And you know what? I happen to like silk & linen as a fabric blend and it sure wouldn't occur to me to judge the character of a man's soul on the basis of his clothing choices. There is some weird shit in your bible. The rest of us are content being "fallen".

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 9:56:06 AM)
But you'll agree that some of those silk hawaiian shirts merit a stoning, surely, no matter how classy the linen pants they're paired with, right?

crazyml -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/23/2014 9:59:39 AM)
Fuck me! As it happens, yes, I was made to. Unwillingly at first, then something went click.

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