quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


But you can't say for sure he wouldn't have found another way either.

So what?

I am saying that the claim is nonsense, irrelevant conjecture at best. It's sole purpose is to obscure and confuse.

If you go along with the lovers' quarrel scenario, then it is clear that Pistorius' easy access to weapons enabled him to get past the locked door and shoot whoever was on the other side of it. Would he have behaved in the same hot blooded fashion after a wait of 5, 10 or 15 minutes? There's no way of knowing for sure but it seems quite unlikely to me.

Unless you can come up with a more plausible scenario, then this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders and therefore access to guns should be limited.

Limited to who ? If you guys over there want to limit guns then who am I to criticize ? I thought guns in South Africa were strictly regulated. I don't know what he was doing with one. I think some of you anti gun folks here are trying to apply some kind of logic to compare things that happen over here. So, what are you suggesting in regard to firearms availability and what limits are you talking about ?

I see that you are no longer contesting my conclusion that " this case is compelling evidence that easy access to guns facilitates murders". Does this silence indicate that you have conceded the point and that you agree? This conclusion is a general one ie it is not limited to any particular place or culture.

In the light of this knowledge, what action(s) should the US take to limit the availability of guns to those who would endanger others?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: accublond

Of course this is pretty much the system we had -- or were moving towards -- in this country for over a century, until the NRA and the Supreme Court convinced folks that somehow urban governments offended the constitution by setting reasonable firearm carry rules within their respective jurisdictions. But, it's a good compromise and I imagine when things calm down we'll get back to it...

====================================================================

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can control a national policy. The NRA is a text book example uniting manufactures and gun owners around the Second Amendment whereas there's no such body or motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of the general population.

In the US political system, a small fanatical minority can wipe out precious constitutional rights. Groups such as handgun control and liberal democrats are text book examples herding their flocks of sheep over the cliff in quest of their utopian vision. Though there is a body with the motivation to argue otherwise on behalf of gun owners and the liberty and freedom loving general public. That organization is the NRA.


There, I fixed it for ya.

quote:

".....if you take all the guns off the street you still will have a crime problem, whereas if you take the criminals off the street you cannot have a gun problem.”
Jeff Cooper

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

quote:


Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

quote:


In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The NRA and gun industry has succeeding in creating the myth that guns are central to US culture, freedom and history. It seems to me that that this myth needs to be challenged and reconsidered before any serious attempts at gun control and reducing gun violence will work in the USA.

Nope. The right to keep and bear arms pre-dates the founding of the NRA in 1871 by the better part of a century.
http://www.nrahq.org/history.asp

quote:


Other countries have similar levels of gun ownership without the attendant violence seen in the USA. To me this suggests that there is something in the culture/mythology of the US that feeds into the high rates of gun violence. Putting it crudely, somehow this enables or authorises Americans to reach for the gun as a solution much faster than citizens of other countries.

The reporting in the popular press certainly makes it seem that way to a casual observer. Remember, FUD sells! (FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt)

quote:


In the meantime, I would be looking at measures that remove guns from the public sphere in urban areas. If guns are being used for home protection, there's no need for them to leave the house. Similarly if guns are being used for sporting purposes, there's no need to bandy them around the city is there? So I would be looking at measures that remove guns from daily life in urban areas, measures that would mean anyone toting a gun in an urban environment would need a substantial reason for doing so or face penalties.

....
Yet, the U.S. has the highest per capita gun ownership of anywhere in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country
....

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Hey, I'll take utopian vision over gun-toting anarchy any day of the week…...

quote:

ORIGINAL:
Was Pistorius a criminal before this incident? I didn't realize that about him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech



Please note, I keep mentioning the "homicide" rate not the "use of firearm" rate. If you look at the number of homicides, the U.S. U.K. and Australia have very similar homicide rates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Yet, the U.S. has the highest per capita gun ownership of anywhere in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

If lawful gun owners were the slavering maniacs the anti-firearm lobby and the sensationalist press would have you believe I think our homicide rate would not be comparable to countries like the U.K. or Australia who have very restrictive firearm controls.

If I offend anyone by presenting facts after you have made up your mind, I apologize.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Hey, I'll take utopian vision over gun-toting anarchy any day of the week…...

I would prefer gun-toting anarchy over tyranny

quote:

ORIGINAL:
Was Pistorius a criminal before this incident? I didn't realize that about him.

From what I understand reading previous posts on this thread, Pistorius was a hot head who unnecessarily discharged a firearm in a public place on 2 separate occasions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I am at a loss to discern any basis for your claim that the homicide rates in the US, the UK and Australia are "very similar" in the data at the link you supplied. According to the data at the link you supplied (presumably to support your claim), the US has a murder rate of 4.8, the UK rate is 1.2 and the Australian rate is 1.0. The US rate is almost 5 times that of Australia, and 4 times that of the UK, so there is simply no way these rates can be described as "very similar". An accurate description of the comparative rates is the US rate is many times worse than those of the UK and Australia.

More accurate and relevant data can be obtained from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate site which lists:
* the US firearm-related homicide rate as 3.6 per 100,000 in 2011;
* the UK firearm-related homicide rate as 0.04 per 100,000 in 2010; and
* the Australian firearm-related homicide rate as 0.13 per 100,000 in 2010;
Again the US rate is many times worse than either the UK or the Australian rate.

As you don't seem to have presented any facts, I suspect that the chances of your post offending anyone are minimal.