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RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 8:45:22 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		FR
It really only comes down to one thing. Some of you guys think gun control is a kewl idea for the US and some of us don't. With an excess of 30 million plus gun owners and about a thousand or so AR 15's currently being sold every day, us gun loonies are pretty well entrenched. Strict gun control will be an uphill battle and a tough sell politically. Just because gun control works in other cultures doesn't make it right for us.

If you look at Chicago, currently the murder capital of the US, they have strict gun control yet gang bangers are shooting each other up on a daily basis. Gang bangers are the primary reason for our high gun violence statistics. Gun control targets peaceable gun owners while the bad guys ply their trade with impunity. They're not afraid of dealing with the consequences of breaking some freakin gun law whereas a law abiding citizen might consider a simple traffic ticket a major legal confrontation.

Yes, a freakin gun lying around can certainly facilitate a crime of passion but it doesn't make sense to restrict the normal gun owners (most of us) when its only a handful of idiots and a bunch of gang bangers fighting over drug turf causing the problems.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 3/13/2014 8:48:35 PM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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Profile   Post #: 121
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 10:33:06 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		the number of murders for every 100,000 citizens is significantly lower in Chicago when compared to a number of American cities. In fact, Chicago doesn’t even come close to making the cut for being one of America’s 10 deadliest cities in 2012.
They had the highest murder rate, but not per capita...which statistically...says so much more.
but I wouldnt expect you to believe it



FBI: Chicago passes New York as murder capital of U.S.

By Reid Wilson
September 18, 2013 at 9:00 am

The city of Chicago registered more homicides than any city in the nation in 2012, surpassing even New York — despite the fact that the Second City has only one third as many residents as the Big Apple.

In new crime statistics released Monday, the Federal Bureau of Investigation reported 500 murders in Chicago in 2012, up sharply from the 431 recorded in 2011. New York reported 419 murders last year, compared with 515 in 2011.

But residents of Chicago and New York were much less likely to be victims of a homicide than residents of Flint, Mich. Sixty-three murders occurred in 2012 in Flint, a city of 101,632, meaning one in every 1,613 city residents were homicide victims. Detroit, which experienced 386 homicides in 2012, was almost as unsafe; that’s enough murders to account for one in every 1,832 residen


Altogether, violent crime rose by 0.7 percent across the nation, the FBI reported. That’s a modest rise after a decade in which violent crime declined precipitously; the 2012 estimated violent crime total was 12.9 percent below 2008 levels and 12.2 percent below 2003 levels. Violent crimes fell by 1.2 percent in the Northeast and 0.3 percent in the South, the data show, but violent crime was up 3.2 percent in the West and 1.5 percent in the Midwest.

While the number of murders and aggravated assaults rose across the nation, the number of robberies declined slightly. And the number of property crimes declined by 0.9 percent, the 10th straight year property crimes have fallen.

Also on GovBeat: How states can prevent 86,000 deaths a year

The murder rate rose by 9.7 percent in cities with populations between 500,000 and 1 million, the FBI reported. And while the murder rate fell by 5.2 percent among metropolitan counties, it rose 4.7 percent in non-metropolitan counties.

And firearms were used in the vast majority of murders. According to FBI data, 69.3 percent of all homicides involved a gun.

More than 40 percent of all violent crimes took place in the South, which accounts for 37.4 percent of the country’s population. Violent crime was less likely to be reported in the Northeast and Midwest, the data show.

Fifteen cities reported more than 100 murders in 2012. Alongside Chicago, New York and Detroit, Philadelphia (331), Los Angeles (299), Baltimore (219), Houston (217), New Orleans (193), Dallas (154), Memphis (133), Oakland (126), Phoenix (124), St. Louis (113), Kansas City (105) and Indianapolis (101) had the busiest homicide departments.

Washington, D.C., which once suffered some of the worst crime rates in the nation, reported 88 murders in 2012.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/09/18/fbi-chicago-passes-new-york-as-murder-capital-of-u-s/


ALso
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/19/fbi-chicago-officially-america-murder-capital/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/09/26/chicago-not-actually-murder-capital-of-well-anything/


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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 10:41:12 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

.... it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.

Really? Are you in the habit of 'cracking up' about imaginary things? If so, some professional help might be warranted.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times this thread, no one is arguing that "evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects". This is an argument that only exists in your imagination. People are arguing (and please quote me on this if you like) that easy access to guns facilitates murder and other acts of gun violence. They make these crimes easier to commit and far more likely to occur during a momentary flash of ill temper.

The Pistorius case is a clear and excellent example of this. Had no firearms been present, Pistorius would not have been able to kill his victim sight unseen for as long as she remained behind a locked door in the bathroom. Easy access to a weapon created the option for Pistorius to shoot her through a locked door. Had Pistorius not had easy access to a gun, the likeliehood is that the gf would still be alive today.

There's nothing too difficult to grasp here is there? If so please advise me and I'll try to explain in even simpler terms.

But there is no excuse - apart from from being deliberately misleading - for anyone to use this tired discredited strawman again.

They don't do things because of guns but because they have guns, a silly deference.

The "silly deference(sic)" you claim turned out to be the defference between the gf's life and death.

Spin it any way you please, but the fact remains that without a gun, Pistorius had no means of killing his victim as long as she stayed behind the locked bathroom door. If Pistorius hadn't had ready acess to firearms, the gf would be, in all probability, still with us today.

This case is compelling evidence that easy access to firearms facilitates murder and other gun violence. That alone is more than enough reason to justify gun control.


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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 10:45:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

.... it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.

Really? Are you in the habit of 'cracking up' about imaginary things? If so, some professional help might be warranted.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times this thread, no one is arguing that "evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects". This is an argument that only exists in your imagination. People are arguing (and please quote me on this if you like) that easy access to guns facilitates murder and other acts of gun violence. They make these crimes easier to commit and far more likely to occur during a momentary flash of ill temper.

The Pistorius case is a clear and excellent example of this. Had no firearms been present, Pistorius would not have been able to kill his victim sight unseen for as long as she remained behind a locked door in the bathroom. Easy access to a weapon created the option for Pistorius to shoot her through a locked door. Had Pistorius not had easy access to a gun, the likeliehood is that the gf would still be alive today.

There's nothing too difficult to grasp here is there? If so please advise me and I'll try to explain in even simpler terms.

But there is no excuse - apart from from being deliberately misleading - for anyone to use this tired discredited strawman again.

They don't do things because of guns but because they have guns, a silly deference.

The "silly deference(sic)" you claim turned out to be the defference between the gf's life and death.

Spin it any way you please, but the fact remains that without a gun, Pistorius had no means of killing his victim as long as she stayed behind the locked bathroom door. If Pistorius hadn't had ready acess to firearms, the gf would be, in all probability, still with us today.

This case is compelling evidence that easy access to firearms facilitates murder and other gun violence. That alone is more than enough reason to justify gun control.


Apparently he then broke down the door with a cricket base so she would have been beaten to death.
But hay that's ok, she wouldn't have been shot.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 10:49:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

.... it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.

Really? Are you in the habit of 'cracking up' about imaginary things? If so, some professional help might be warranted.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times this thread, no one is arguing that "evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects". This is an argument that only exists in your imagination. People are arguing (and please quote me on this if you like) that easy access to guns facilitates murder and other acts of gun violence. They make these crimes easier to commit and far more likely to occur during a momentary flash of ill temper.

The Pistorius case is a clear and excellent example of this. Had no firearms been present, Pistorius would not have been able to kill his victim sight unseen for as long as she remained behind a locked door in the bathroom. Easy access to a weapon created the option for Pistorius to shoot her through a locked door. Had Pistorius not had easy access to a gun, the likeliehood is that the gf would still be alive today.

There's nothing too difficult to grasp here is there? If so please advise me and I'll try to explain in even simpler terms.

But there is no excuse - apart from from being deliberately misleading - for anyone to use this tired discredited strawman again.

They don't do things because of guns but because they have guns, a silly deference.

The "silly deference(sic)" you claim turned out to be the defference between the gf's life and death.

Spin it any way you please, but the fact remains that without a gun, Pistorius had no means of killing his victim as long as she stayed behind the locked bathroom door. If Pistorius hadn't had ready acess to firearms, the gf would be, in all probability, still with us today.

This case is compelling evidence that easy access to firearms facilitates murder and other gun violence. That alone is more than enough reason to justify gun control.


No matter how you want to spin it she was murdered , not because Pistorius had a gun but because he
made the cold blooded decision to kill her.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 10:57:13 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		The rage of hitting the door with the cricket bat was probably cos she locked herself in the bathroom, he couldnt get to her with just the bat, he got tired and went for the gun, cos a bullet would do the job where as a cricket bat wasnt getting there fast enough
yeah having a gun makes a lot of difference....


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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 11:08:30 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
I wouldnt expect you to believe it


I would believe it even without the links to your research but, the point was, the Chicago murder rate is rather high considering their strict gun control. I don't have all the answers Lucy but as you can plainly see I don't believe gun control is the answer. In fact I think it would do more harm than good. Thanks though for the stats.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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Profile   Post #: 127
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/13/2014 11:54:21 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
This case is compelling evidence that easy access to firearms facilitates murder and other gun violence. That alone is more than enough reason to justify gun control.


I get it, in the heat of passion when there is a firearm present, some ass holes will grab it and start shooting. However, the overwhelming majority of those with gun access, somewhere in the 99.9% range, are not going to reach for it even in the heat of passion. Yet you think the majority should face stiffer restrictions because of a few idiots.

Keep in mind also that in the majority of these crimes of passion, alcohol or drugs factor in and generally are committed by those who are dysfunctional.

Just what kind of gun control is justified by these types of crimes anyway ?

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 1:54:34 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
This case is compelling evidence that easy access to firearms facilitates murder and other gun violence. That alone is more than enough reason to justify gun control.


I get it, in the heat of passion when there is a firearm present, some ass holes will grab it and start shooting. However, the overwhelming majority of those with gun access, somewhere in the 99.9% range, are not going to reach for it even in the heat of passion. Yet you think the majority should face stiffer restrictions because of a few idiots.



Do you have some evidence or links to back up your claim (bolded above)?

If so, please present it. My suspicion is that a lot more than one murder in a thousand is the result of spur-of-the-moment inflamed passions. My guess is that road rage killings would exceed this figure on their own.

Presenting your evidence would rule out the possibility that your claim is yet another groundless wild self serving piece of fiction coming from the pro-gun side of this discussion.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/14/2014 1:55:45 AM >

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RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 2:16:30 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Apparently he then broke down the door with a cricket base so she would have been beaten to death.
But hay that's ok, she wouldn't have been shot.

Another glib rationalisation. Advanced by someone who doesn't know any of the parties involved from a distance of thousands of kilometres away. What might have happened in different circumstances is any one's guess and a guess is all it will ever be.

You have no way of knowing what might have happened if Pistorius didn't have such easy access to guns. Nor do I. Nor ooes any one else, including Pistorius. However we do know for certain that Pistorius had easy access to guns and this easy access enabled him to bypass the locked bathroom door and kill her.

So please try to stick to the known facts and lose the self serving glib rationalisations.

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 2:17:34 AM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		Yes I'll have to look it up for you but my recollection is out of all gun owners its a fraction of a percent causing the problems though I could be off a 10th of a percent.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

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Profile   Post #: 131
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 6:47:19 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You have no way of knowing what might have happened if Pistorius didn't have such easy access to guns.

The psychopath would have murdered her in whatever way he could.

In my opinion the girl got a Darwin Award for associating with this psychopath. She must have been a blonde.

When will females ever acquire brains?


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RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 7:22:45 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No charges have been brought against his firearm, no doubt because the authorities
are not smart enough to know the killing was it's idea and not his..


It cracks me up that gun fans think that this line is such a humdinger of an ace card in any gun debate. Whimsical and joky plays on the view that 'guns don't kill, people do'. 'By Crackey, that shuts up those anti-gun types, sharpish!' . . . You can just feel the sense of triumph that comes from whichever gun-toting plonker has played that card.

Wrong again, I expect anyone to change sides, but it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.


Alright, so Pistorius is evil. So why didn't the South African government give him life imprisonment for his previous gun violations? Because if they had, he would have been in jail, and would not have been able to kill anyone with anything. Why do they not have a system of life imprisonment for all infractions no matter how minor. That's how you remove "evil" people from society. He had two minor gun violations. They should have put him in jail and tossed away the key. Because anything short of that leaves a dangerous person out in public.

Again, explain to me how South Africa is supposed to control all "evil" people before they've committed murder. The only way I can see to do that is to give life imprisonment to anyone who violates any law no matter how minor or small. Because, as you say, it is the people who will commit crimes (future tense).

So give us some concrete suggestions for how South Africa can reduce crime by removing people who they think might commit a fatal crime in the future from the streets. Because I agree with you. People cause crimes so let's remove the people who might cause crimes. Just give us some ideas of how we can implement that.

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 9:29:17 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Apparently he then broke down the door with a cricket base so she would have been beaten to death.
But hay that's ok, she wouldn't have been shot.

Another glib rationalisation. Advanced by someone who doesn't know any of the parties involved from a distance of thousands of kilometres away. What might have happened in different circumstances is any one's guess and a guess is all it will ever be.

You have no way of knowing what might have happened if Pistorius didn't have such easy access to guns. Nor do I. Nor ooes any one else, including Pistorius. However we do know for certain that Pistorius had easy access to guns and this easy access enabled him to bypass the locked bathroom door and kill her.

So please try to stick to the known facts and lose the self serving glib rationalisations.

Everything you just said applies to you every bit as much as to me.
Except of course that I blame the killer, you don't

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 9:32:01 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
No charges have been brought against his firearm, no doubt because the authorities
are not smart enough to know the killing was it's idea and not his..


It cracks me up that gun fans think that this line is such a humdinger of an ace card in any gun debate. Whimsical and joky plays on the view that 'guns don't kill, people do'. 'By Crackey, that shuts up those anti-gun types, sharpish!' . . . You can just feel the sense of triumph that comes from whichever gun-toting plonker has played that card.

Wrong again, I expect anyone to change sides, but it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.


Alright, so Pistorius is evil. So why didn't the South African government give him life imprisonment for his previous gun violations? Because if they had, he would have been in jail, and would not have been able to kill anyone with anything. Why do they not have a system of life imprisonment for all infractions no matter how minor. That's how you remove "evil" people from society. He had two minor gun violations. They should have put him in jail and tossed away the key. Because anything short of that leaves a dangerous person out in public.

Again, explain to me how South Africa is supposed to control all "evil" people before they've committed murder. The only way I can see to do that is to give life imprisonment to anyone who violates any law no matter how minor or small. Because, as you say, it is the people who will commit crimes (future tense).

So give us some concrete suggestions for how South Africa can reduce crime by removing people who they think might commit a fatal crime in the future from the streets. Because I agree with you. People cause crimes so let's remove the people who might cause crimes. Just give us some ideas of how we can implement that.

You know full well that none of his previous offenses merited a life sentence, even South Africa doesn't have a Minority Report
society. In the U S he would not have been able to legally own a firearm

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 10:24:47 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

.... it cracks me up to hear gunaphobes arguing that evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects.

Really? Are you in the habit of 'cracking up' about imaginary things? If so, some professional help might be warranted.

As has been pointed out to you multiple times this thread, no one is arguing that "evil people do evil things because of inaimate objects". This is an argument that only exists in your imagination. People are arguing (and please quote me on this if you like) that easy access to guns facilitates murder and other acts of gun violence. They make these crimes easier to commit and far more likely to occur during a momentary flash of ill temper.

The Pistorius case is a clear and excellent example of this. Had no firearms been present, Pistorius would not have been able to kill his victim sight unseen for as long as she remained behind a locked door in the bathroom. Easy access to a weapon created the option for Pistorius to shoot her through a locked door. Had Pistorius not had easy access to a gun, the likeliehood is that the gf would still be alive today.

There's nothing too difficult to grasp here is there? If so please advise me and I'll try to explain in even simpler terms.

But there is no excuse - apart from from being deliberately misleading - for anyone to use this tired discredited strawman again.

You shouldn't ridicule someone for believing that some people believe what Peon has already admitted to believing.
Shows a disconnect from reality which is consistent with most of your posts.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 12:47:07 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

You shouldn't ridicule someone for believing that some people believe what Peon has already admitted to believing.


Wasn't much of an admission, Bama. Guns have symbolic power. So do crucifixes and swastikas. You don't believe this? Really?

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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 2:22:10 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Yes I'll have to look it up for you but my recollection is out of all gun owners its a fraction of a percent causing the problems though I could be off a 10th of a percent.


I've been trying to find a link but if you take the estimated 70,000,000 gun owners in the US, .1% comes to 70,000. I have to be pretty freakin close. It's probably less than .1%.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 3/14/2014 2:25:06 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 3:21:21 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

You shouldn't ridicule someone for believing that some people believe what Peon has already admitted to believing.


Wasn't much of an admission, Bama. Guns have symbolic power. So do crucifixes and swastikas. You don't believe this? Really?

I was chastising her for claiming nobody believed that when you take pride in that belief.
Symbolic, to you, causing me to murder someone, no way.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: South Africa -- Pistorius Trial -- Sensless Murder ... - 3/14/2014 3:23:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Yes I'll have to look it up for you but my recollection is out of all gun owners its a fraction of a percent causing the problems though I could be off a 10th of a percent.


I've been trying to find a link but if you take the estimated 70,000,000 gun owners in the US, .1% comes to 70,000. I have to be pretty freakin close. It's probably less than .1%.

Of course it is, this combined with 4 crimes being stopped with a firearm for every one committed with one.
Even Bloomberg admits to over have a million crimes stopped every year with the defensive use of firearms.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
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