quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
No one is forced to work at a specific place. Everyone chooses to work where they work. Ya'all might think that you have to be able to afford X, Y, and Z, or else you aren't getting paid enough. That's not true. There are almost always ways to reduce X, Y and Z to get within your budget. I know people who skipped cable so they could use those resources in areas they felt were more important. Just because you want X, Y, and Z doesn't mean your employer has to pay you enough to have them.

What you're saying is true, but isn't it also just as true from the other side as well? No one is forcing the employer to pay lousy wages. The employer could pay higher wages and do without X, Y, and Z himself, couldn't he/she? And if he/she doesn't do that, isn't it the employees' right to call him/her a cheap bastard?

The difference is, it's the employer's business. That's the difference. You want to call the shots? Start the business. When it's your business, and your capital that's on the line, you get to make the rules (to an extent).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
life
rent, food, hydro, taxes, family obligations, life obligations,
specific employer?could it have something to do with the lack of jobs ?

Has there always been a "lack of jobs," Lucy?

Didn't think so.

What is stopping these people forced into working for a shitty company from getting a job at a "not shitty" company, or starting their own "not shitty" company?

Instead of pissing, moaning and bitching into their Corn Flakes, they could pull up their big boy/girl underwear/panties, and make their own life. Couldn't they?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
because they have to?
I dunno you ask em
making a stand against shitty employers only works if you can leave?

Who is making them work there? No one has to work for any specific employer. I don't know if it's different up North, but here in the States, no one is forcing anyone to work at a particular business.

I agree, fuck 'em...let them eat cake.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

not everyone has the brains to do that tho, some people I have talked to make me feel sorry for them cuz they will be in their shitty job for the rest of their lives and be eating cat food when they retire (when they are too old to continue working).. Some people just don't have what it takes to be in their own business, I have talked to people that have tried and run tail back to the "security" of working for someone else.. But then that's all good for the ones that can.. less competition and all..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You seem to be lumping every business into one category and making it sound like they all abuse their positions. That's simply not true.

I wasn't lumping them all together, but some of them might abuse their positions, which is why there needs to be regulation and supervision of the business sector. Just like we have laws to restrain government and a (supposedly) vigilant citizenry to watch them.
But I'll concede that individual businesses are just like individual citizens - some are good responsible citizens and some are not.
However, I'll mention that most of the regulations and instances of government interfering in the private sector are/were to deal with the bad apples and those who abuse(d) their positions. So, whenever anyone shows resistance or ideological opposition to government interfering in the private sector, it makes it look like they're trying to protect the bad apples.
I'm not saying that all businesses are bad, but it seems like so many free market types insist on keeping the bad apples in the barrel just for the sake of ideological orthodoxy. If an honest business person doesn't want to be tarred with the brush of their peers, then they should be the first ones to support reform and weeding out the bad apples; they shouldn't oppose it just for ideological reasons. They should think in practical terms, as one might expect from a business person.

quote:

You are also equating the free market system with the crony capitalism system that we have today. The more influence government exerts in the market, the more beneficial it is for business to attempt to sway government.

quote:

quote:

An interesting read here.

Interesting. I don't know if really have the same kind of crony capitalism today that we had back in the 19th century. There have been a lot of changes between then and now.
I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier. I respect that you have a certain ideal and a set of principles about capitalism and the free market, and that you also say that what we have today is not in line with those principles. Fair enough. I don't know how or if this ideal would ever be implemented in American society, as the symbiotic relationship between government and business seems so hopelessly twisted and tangled.
It's not that I disagree entirely with the free market or certain core principles of capitalism. But I don't really see an economic system as the be all and end all of our society. I don't see it as some kind of sacrosanct thing that must always remain as the gods have ordained. It's just a system, after all. We can change it. We can fix it...perhaps...but only until America gets out of this ideological feedback loop that we seem to be stuck in.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There is a need for some regulation and government intervention. Absolutely. It should be all about the consumer, though. Make it illegal to lie in advertising and packaging (which, is really just more advertising), and penalize those who commit that crime.

quote:


That's not all about the consumer, though, as there will be businesses that benefit from "forcing" (or penalizing) their competitors that lie. But, it's a definite consumer protection. If a regulation results in less competition and higher prices for consumers, then, maybe it's not a good regulation.

quote:

quote:


If that's the system that we have, then why would anyone in the business community be complaining at all? The system is already stacked in their favor, and they already have oodles of influence in the government anyway. That's why nothing ever really changes and there's never any true reform in our political or economic systems.

Why? Uh, because not all businesses are benefiting to the same extent.

quote:


Capitalism is a component of a society. A system of government is also a component of society. Those two can overlap, too.

Can we fix it? I don't know. I sure as hell hope so. The best way to fix it (which is likely the least popular, sadly), is to reduce the extent to which government picks winners and losers (special carve outs) and not by giving away even more, but only to the current favorite sector.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
There is a need for some regulation and government intervention. Absolutely. It should be all about the consumer, though. Make it illegal to lie in advertising and packaging (which, is really just more advertising), and penalize those who commit that crime.

I agree with this completely. I actually think that anyone who gets in front of a public podium, camera, microphone, etc., they should be considered under oath and be subject to perjury charges if they lie. This could come in especially handy when it comes to political candidates and their advertisements. Impeachment could be made much easier and would force them to be very, very careful about every promise and every utterance they make.

quote:

That's not all about the consumer, though, as there will be businesses that benefit from "forcing" (or penalizing) their competitors that lie. But, it's a definite consumer protection. If a regulation results in less competition and higher prices for consumers, then, maybe it's not a good regulation.

And I would concede that there probably are some bad and/or unnecessary regulations out there. But there might be other societal level considerations beyond consumer protection or lower prices. There are environmental concerns, conservation of resources, national security issues, political stability, etc.

quote:

quote:

quote:

If that's the system that we have, then why would anyone in the business community be complaining at all? The system is already stacked in their favor, and they already have oodles of influence in the government anyway. That's why nothing ever really changes and there's never any true reform in our political or economic systems.

Why? Uh, because not all businesses are benefiting to the same extent.

You mean some businesses are complaining about inequality and unfairness? Isn't that what the workers who were "whining, moaning, and pissing" doing too? If your position is that an individual fails due to a lack of skills, drive, ambition, etc. and has to work for crappy wages as a consequence, wouldn't that also be true for a business that fails? They can't blame it on regulation or taxes or anything else the government does, since other businesses have had proven success under the same conditions.

quote:

quote:

Capitalism is a component of a society. A system of government is also a component of society. Those two can overlap, too.
Can we fix it? I don't know. I sure as hell hope so. The best way to fix it (which is likely the least popular, sadly), is to reduce the extent to which government picks winners and losers (special carve outs) and not by giving away even more, but only to the current favorite sector.

That may help, although I'm not sure if it goes deep enough to get to the root of the problem. The problem is really within government. If business is out of control, it's only because the government hasn't done anything to deal with them. There's no doubt a lot of favoritism, cronyism, good-old-boy networks, etc. in the system, and this is what has to be addressed.
But I also think that Americans from both side of the spectrum might have to be more ideologically flexible than they currently are.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I won't say owning your own business is always easy. It's not. But in reality, there are ways to make money from your home that a monkey is almost capable of doing. Data entry, technical support, sales, even parts assembly. You just have to be willing to do the homework to figure it out. The real beauty of working from home is the tax breaks. I use one of my spare bedrooms as a home office. It takes up about 12% of the total floor space of my home. Because of that, I can directly write 12% of the cost of my utilities, mortgage, insurance, and more, from my income as a business expense. I get to write off the full value of all my computer equipment and I'm also allowed to deduct $0.52 for every mile I drive in my car for business. That may not seem like a lot but believe me, it adds up over time. And ANYONE can do that...at least in the US. I don't know about Canada.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

not everyone has the brains to do that tho, some people I have talked to make me feel sorry for them cuz they will be in their shitty job for the rest of their lives and be eating cat food when they retire (when they are too old to continue working).. Some people just don't have what it takes to be in their own business, I have talked to people that have tried and run tail back to the "security" of working for someone else.. But then that's all good for the ones that can.. less competition and all..

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

You wanna know what part really sucks? When you get the $35,000 tax bill because you didn't have to take out all the bullshit they usually get from a regular paycheck. If I could have kept all the money I gave for Social Security over the years and invested it myself, I'd have a 7-digit retirement account right now. But noooooooooo. I'm not allowed to go it alone and be responsible for myself. That's just plain selfish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

So
you have someone in a union job or out it doesnt matter... works his 40 a week, has a wife and three kids, a mortgage, 2 cars, cos they work separate shifts, hes been doing the job for fifteen years, pays lousy conditions are lousy, price of everything seems to double he has no savings, debt up to his eyeballs, cant afford time off to get a better education, has an idea for a business, but doesnt want to get deeper in debt.
How (without blaming him for not planning better) does he go about it? during the setup, the legal issues, getting a website, paying a lawyer, a company, suppliers, customers?

Depends on the type of business. I've been self-employed since I was 18. All it took was doing a little homework on business ownership and $10 every 5 years to keep my business registered. I didn't need a lawyer, I don't have a website, my suppliers ship to my home, and I can write off a portion of my costs of living directly off my taxes. Getting customers takes ground pounding and some actual ambition but it can be done.

Noooo....that's just crazy talk.

Starting a business when you have 5 kids and a mountain of debt is impossible....we know this to be true because everyone who doesn't have the balls to start a business said so.

It can't be done.

You wanna know what part really sucks? When you get the $35,000 tax bill because you didn't have to take out all the bullshit they usually get from a regular paycheck. If I could have kept all the money I gave for Social Security over the years and invested it myself, I'd have a 7-digit retirement account right now. But noooooooooo. I'm not allowed to go it alone and be responsible for myself. That's just plain selfish.

(I actually don't have a clue what that means).

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
...personally I think they are all scams

quote:


...they have to find something that fits them (that's probably the hardest part)

quote:


and it has to really make money (as the govt tax dept expects profits within a certain number of years)

quote:


...its probably a lot easier & more profitable to just move to N Dakota and be a stripper! lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Government should not have carte blanche to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, to whomever it wants.

quote:


Damn near anything can get rationalized as being "National Security." As long as a politician can rationalize something, he/she can do it.

That's abuse of power and definitely not proper.

quote:


Yes, they are complaining about inequality and unfairness. Government should treat each and every business the same way. No one business, or sector should get treated differently. That's unfair and unequal.

quote:


The most ignored thing in a Capitalistic economy - and the second most important thing - is loss. Without loss, business will inefficiently consume resources, and will eventually drive up costs. As long as their competitors are living under the same regulatory structure, they can't blame government. And, as I have said many times before on this very board, failed businesses can and should be learning tools for how to not do things. Government propping up a failed business doesn't send the proper signal that that failed business model doesn't work.

quote:


Yup. Sadly, as soon as one starts to bend, the other will start to really hammer away rather than bend in return.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
the tax laws for self-employed/home based business in Canada are similar.. but have you seen all the "work at home" scams out there???? personally I think they are all scams, I personally would not waste my time with those.. but sure, people (if they have the time) can work part-time at avon or whatever in their time after their shitty 9-5 job.. but they have to find something that fits them (that's probably the hardest part) and it has to really make money (as the govt tax dept expects profits within a certain number of years)..No, its not easy.. its probably a lot easier & more profitable to just move to N Dakota and be a stripper! lol

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Did you read any of the posted comments?

Now, for the rest of the story. The carpenters union has placed these signs all over Wichita Ks and I have stopped at every one I see to ask what they are disputing. They are complaining about the drywall contractors being non union and not having full medical benefits. HOWEVER, in 20 plus stops, every person holding the signs said they could not talk to me because they were temporary workers and just gave me a colored paper flyer from the union. Hows that for hypocrisy, hiring workers with no benefits to hold a sign complaining about other workers not having benefits!!!

I believe in fair labor practices but not every job on the planet needs to be controlled by a union.

(edit for spelling)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
I don't know about Canada but there's no obligation to the government to turn a profit in the US. You can continuously lose money and still be in business as far as the IRS is concerned.