RE: hetro male slaves (Full Version)

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FightingChains -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:13:07 PM)

Not at all, Ishtar

I'm simply saying that physical sensations of the human nervous system aren't intrinsically tied to sexual attraction to a certain gender, as was suggested.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting anything else.



JeffBC -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Probably not the best way to explain what I meant. lol. I think my next post above yours was a little better. [:D]

Well that's a relief because here I'd chalked you up to a mostly sensible poster who spoke the English language :) Now granted, I speak that bastardized form of English that us yanks do but over here "homosexuality" means:

sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:19:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Not at all, Ishtar

I'm simply saying that physical sensations of the human nervous system aren't intrinsically tied to sexual attraction to a certain gender, as was suggested.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting anything else.

But you categorically stated that fact.

Even as recently as post #36, you stated -
quote:

Can it feel good hitting the prostate? Yes. That is a physical stimulation that is a matter of stimulation to the nervous system in a way that the body finds extremely pleasurable even if the rest of your body is in pain.

I for one, and as Ishtar said that 70% of their sample didn't like it, makes your first sentence and subsequent conclusion to utterly false.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:21:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Not at all, Ishtar

I'm simply saying that physical sensations of the human nervous system aren't intrinsically tied to sexual attraction to a certain gender, as was suggested.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was suggesting anything else.

And we are saying... it absolutely IS.
Contrary to your explicit statement.


ETA: Your statement implies an involuntary reaction.
We are saying the reaction is most certainly controlled and is not involuntary.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:26:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

I'm simply saying that physical sensations of the human nervous system aren't intrinsically tied to sexual attraction to a certain gender, as was suggested.



But they are darling.

The brain is the biggest sexorgan people have. How you play on that is a major factor in how the sensation is processed.

Now am I saying that it's impossible for a person to get a pleasurable sensation from an act not in line with their sexuality, or from an act of rape? Nope.

But what I *am* saying is that this person will most likely not interpret this sensation as pleasurable at all. A rape victim who orgasms doesn't tend to later describe the sensation as "pleasurable" they describe the very sensation of the orgasm itself as "betrayal", "painful", "humiliating", "upsetting". They take a sensation that usually is pleasurable and perceive it as unpleasurable. It's not a matter of them perceiving it as a pleasurable sensation that happens despite the unpleasurable sensations also going on, no, the orgasm in and off itself becomes an unpleasurable sensation.

I suggest that the same thing happens to most heterosexual men when their prostate is internally stimulated: they take a physical sensation that the brain is capable of perceiving in a pleasant way, and process it as unpleasant anyways. That doesn't mean that they're ignoring the pleasure of the sensation, and are insisting on processing it as unpleasant anyways, it means that -in a lot of cases- they are literally incapable of processing it as a positive thing, despite the fact that if they were emotionally detached from the act they physically probably could process it as a positive thing.

You seem to assume that men are refusing to acknowledge that prostate stimulation is a pleasurable sensation, and that it's that refusal that makes it unpleasant for them. While that may be the case for some men, I believe that for most heterosexual men that simple isn't the case, because their brain isn't wired in a way that they are capable of processing it in any other way than a negative one.



ARIES83 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:28:41 PM)

Ok well, I feel a little saner now that I'm not the only person that feels this way about that idea.
It's just that this kind of thing comes up a bit, and it does leave me pretty confused sometimes.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4660641




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:29:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
...over here "homosexuality" means:
sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.

Yep. Abso-smurfly correct.
But emphasis on the 'behaviour' bit.
As in liking it, wanting it, or not, as the case may be.

Fighting Chains is maintaining that it's an autonomous and pleasurable reaction to certain stimuli.
Ishtar and I are categorically stating that it is far from autonomous and is definitely governed by behaviourable response.
Ie, a certain act is pleasurable from one gender but completely not pleasurable (and even nauseous) from the other depending on your sexual orientation and preferences.



JeffBC -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:46:26 PM)

Oh, I'm in agreement that the raw nerve impulses mean exactly nothing until they get interpreted in our brain into some feeling or emotion. Up until then they are simply signals. This oughta be obvious given the number of masochists we have on these boards. Obviously, sometimes pain isn't pain. The same can be said of everything else.

I just had a hard time defining a bit of plastic as a person... although with the supreme court we have in the US giving out person-hood willy nilly who knows? Maybe that's the next citizen's united? Dildos are people too! Maybe we need to give dildos the right to vote?



FightingChains -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:47:51 PM)

Post deleted.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 4:56:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

There are a lot of men out there who enjoy this stimulation by a woman, but the idea of anything with a man is absurd and disgusting to them... Hmmm definitely closet bisexuals! [;)]

Nope.

As Ishtar said and from my own circle of male friends (and also my own preference), I would go so far to say that your observations aren't the norm or even the majority.

So to blatantly state -
quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains
I'm simply saying that physical sensations of the human nervous system aren't intrinsically tied to sexual attraction to a certain gender, as was suggested.
Is, quite frankly, absurdly incorrect.



frunandsins -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 5:02:08 PM)

The neurons fire signals when stimulated, regardless of what causes the stimulation. The nerve endings of an anus and the nerve endings on a prostate will fire signals when touched. Whether that neurological signal is interpreted by our brains as "pressure" or "pain" or "pleasure," will be entirely subjective.

I think that's perhaps closer to what Fighting Chains was trying to say.

That said, let us imagine a scenario:

A glory hole at an adult bookstore. A straight man walks up to it and puts his cock through. There's what feels like a mouth on the other side: warm, wet, soft, and it is sucking on the cock. Quite skillfully, in fact.

Do you think he will get an erection and experience pleasure?

What if we add to the scenario, and he could hear soft moaning noises from the other side like a woman is really enjoying sucking that cock?

Do you think he will get an erection and experience pleasure?

Now what if he is experiencing pleasure, and then slowly, the sound from the other side changed and now sounds more like a guy's voice?

Do you think he will stop feeling pleasure? Has the sensation changed or has his interpretation of sensation changed?

What if the voice never changed and remained feminine? But unknown to our straight man who is getting his cock sucked, the voice is actually a pre-operation male-to-female transsexual already on hormone treatment? Will that change anything?

The point is that sensation is sensation, but our interpretation changes.

I fully accept that some straight men will find it undesirable and unpleasant to have another man blow them, or lick their asses, or stimulate their prostates, even if the same activities done by a woman would bring them pleasure. I don't think that's far-fetched or unbelievable at all. In those cases, it's literally, all in their heads. But like Dumbledore told Harry, "Yes it's all in your head, but what makes you think it's not real"? ;-)






freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 5:27:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

The neurons fire signals when stimulated, regardless of what causes the stimulation. The nerve endings of an anus and the nerve endings on a prostate will fire signals when touched. Whether that neurological signal is interpreted by our brains as "pressure" or "pain" or "pleasure," will be entirely subjective.

I think that's perhaps closer to what Fighting Chains was trying to say.

Granted, in it's strictest and absolute sense.
But for many (and I would suggest, more than 50%) would need the visual stimulus to direct that 'signal' to register as 'pleasurable'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
That said, let us imagine a scenario:

A glory hole at an adult bookstore. A straight man walks up to it and puts his cock through. There's what feels like a mouth on the other side: warm, wet, soft, and it is sucking on the cock. Quite skillfully, in fact.

And again, I don't think most "straight" men would do such a thing without knowing what's on the other side.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
Do you think he will get an erection and experience pleasure?

What if we add to the scenario, and he could hear soft moaning noises from the other side like a woman is really enjoying sucking that cock?

And again, without the visual stimulus of knowing it was female, most wouldn't do that or experience pleasure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
Do you think he will get an erection and experience pleasure?

Maybe... if the gender of the person performing was the right one and attractive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
Now what if he is experiencing pleasure, and then slowly, the sound from the other side changed and now sounds more like a guy's voice?

Do you think he will stop feeling pleasure? Has the sensation changed or has his interpretation of sensation changed?

Huge assumptions being made here.
Interpretation is everything.
Lets throw in a spanner and say it started as female but they did a switcheroo mid-way and the receiver suddenly found out??
I'm willing to bet it'd be instant deflation and feeling nauseous and extremely unpleasant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
What if the voice never changed and remained feminine? But unknown to our straight man who is getting his cock sucked, the voice is actually a pre-operation male-to-female transsexual already on hormone treatment? Will that change anything?

The point is that sensation is sensation, but our interpretation changes.

No. I disagree.
The stimulus may be there but the reaction, both mentally and physically, will change depending on the visual input.
FightingChains wasn't advocating a blind test, so the outcome will be very very different to his assertion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
I fully accept that some straight men will find it undesirable and unpleasant to have another man blow them, or lick their asses, or stimulate their prostates, even if the same activities done by a woman would bring them pleasure.

FightingChains was also stating that the stimulus produced a pleasurable response regardless.
We are saying that isn't the case at all and is actually quite the contrary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
I don't think that's far-fetched or unbelievable at all. In those cases, it's literally, all in their heads. But like Dumbledore told Harry, "Yes it's all in your head, but what makes you think it's not real"? ;-)

And as said, physical stimulus on it's own won't produce the results as posited.
Most straight men also require the visual to interact to produce any sort of response one way or the other.



frunandsins -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 6:53:30 PM)

Well, let's have some real data, then, shall we?

quote:

Three US studies using convenience samples were also
reviewed. The Young Men’s Survey, conducted between
1994 and 1998, used multisite, venue-based sampling of
MSM aged 15–22 years. In the 6 months before the survey,
57% of men reported receptive anal intercourse and 59% of men
reported insertive anal intercourse. These levels were fairly
consistent across the seven cities surveyed (Baltimore, Dallas,
Los Angeles, Miami, New York, San Francisco Bay Area and
Seattle).24


Source: Anal sex practices in heterosexual and male homosexual
populations: a review of population-based data

Wendy Heywood and Anthony M. A. Smith
Sexual Health, 2012, 9, 517–526
http://dx.doi.org/10.1071/SH12014

Unless we hypothesize that 55% of survey respondents were gay or bisexual, I'd say that the 57% of men in that age group reporting receptive anal intercourse would indicate that plenty of self-identified straight men enjoy it.

Of course, one might also propose that men who enjoy receiving anal intercourse are not straight. That would be silly. But one might.



frunandsins -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 6:57:23 PM)

Also, let me point out that you are also trying to speak from both sides of the mouth.

On one side, you're claiming that straight men will need the appropriate heterosexual visual cue to become aroused by sexual acts and to enjoy it, and that they would be disgusted and revolted by homosexual visual cues, regardless of the physical sensation.

On the other side, you're chastising FightingChains for making claims about men's psyche in broad strokes.

Seems to me you're painting with a pretty broad stroke here, as well, and you're making as much of a categorical claim on behalf of a large number of men as FightingChains was for all men.

Let us also ponder the sexual responses of men with visual and/or hearing impairments. Are they, then, consigned to a land of non-existant sexual stimuli? Can they even be "heterosexual" or "homosexual" if your claim that the visual cue is the determining factor for arousing?



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 7:46:30 PM)

[sm=goodpost.gif]

As for the digital manipulation, there are many men who say no to it, even when they know it might be very enjoyable. It's too non-hetro for them.

At least that's been my experience.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 9:38:22 PM)

I am claiming that for the majority of men, visual stimuli is much more of a necessity than for women.
And most men, irrespective of stupid and meaningless studies, would use visual input for pretty much most of their sexual lives.
Men are inherently visual creatures.


From your source:
quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.publish.csiro.au/?paper=SH12014
Anal sex is known to be an important risk factor for anal cancer. Yet compared with vaginal intercourse, little is known about anal sex practices in either heterosexual or male homosexual populations. Of the data that are available, it appears a significant and increasing minority of heterosexuals have ever practised anal intercourse. Among homosexual men, most, but not all, report anal sex, with large proportions of men engaging in both insertive and receptive anal intercourse

So your own source states that little is known about heterosexual anal sex practices.

And I would indeed suggest that most "straight" men would neither indulge nor enjoy receiving anal sex of any description.
Moreover, I don't subscribe to the notion that it is silly to do so.


Of course, YMMV.



frunandsins -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 10:14:48 PM)

quote:

And most men, irrespective of stupid and meaningless studies, would use visual input for pretty much most of their sexual lives.


:lol: Ok then. There's no point in further discussing.


quote:

So your own source states that little is known about heterosexual anal sex practices.


Little is known != what we do know is unreliable. It just means it's incomplete and the best picture we have so far. That's how science works - discovery by small progressions. But you know, who cares about stupid and meaningless studies. ;-)


quote:

And I would indeed suggest that most "straight" men would neither indulge nor enjoy receiving anal sex of any description.


I would agree to that. The quibble is what exactly is "most"? I think the percent is lower than you think. I think absent the cultural taboo that associates anal stimnulation with homosexuality, more straight men will enjoy anal sex, either through digital stimulation, dildos, strap-ons, or other toys. Every man's prostate contract when they climax and ejaculate. That's a physiological fact. It is also a fact that men who had prostate surgeries or damages to the prostate tend to have issues in erection and in other sexual functions. If the prostate were not a significant contributor to male orgasm, this would not be the case, no? And if you accept the biological fact that the prostate plays a critical and indispensable role in the male orgasm, it makes sense that some men, regardless of straight or gay, might enjoy having their prostates stimulated, yes? It's just like some men like their nipples played with and some men's nipples are dead zones, and whether they like it or not is independent of whether they are gay, straight, bi, trans, or genderfluid.

And since you wish to exit the realm of statistical studies, we can talk about anecdotal data. I know two women, one straight and one bi, who are both into pegging. Between the two of them they probably had over 50 straight male partners over the last 15 years of so of me knowing them. And of those, they told me that about 70% of the straight men wanted and enjoyed receiving anal sex, some more robustly than others. It is a bit of a selective sampling since both of them are more disposed to dating/fucking men who have that itch. I personally know 2 straight male friends who enjoy anal stimulation, though not penetration by dildo. They enjoy small vibrators, aneulos, and fingers.

So yes, most straight men don't like receiving anal stimulation, but some do. The question is where is the "most" and where is the "some." I think it's probably closer to a 85-15 split than a 95-5 split and if we could get more people to stop thinking that anal sex = gay then my speculation is that the percent will probably be closer to 70-30.

That aside, I am just tickled pink that anal sex is the one thing that most straight men won't do, when there are more gay men who enjoy receiving oral sex than there are gay men who enjoy receiving anal sex. What makes getting fucked more gay-defining than getting sucked so that most straight men won't do it? Does being straight wire your body's neurons differently? No, we know that isn't true, because fuck, most men like getting blown. This association of being penetrated with being gay and the subsequent use of refusing to be fucked as a marker for heterosexuality is just so anachronistic. Straight men can be submissive to a Domme and not be considered not-straight, but if he finds pleasure when his Domme pushes a dildo up his ass, then his straight-ness is called into question? Wow. We live in very different worlds, and hey, viva la difference. :)



GoddessManko -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 10:23:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

Well, let's have some real data, then, shall we?

quote:

Three US studies using convenience samples were also
reviewed. The Young Men’s Survey, conducted between
1994 and 1998, used multisite, venue-based sampling of
MSM aged 15–22 years. In the 6 months before the survey,
57% of men reported receptive anal intercourse and 59% of men
reported insertive anal intercourse. These levels were fairly
consistent across the seven cities surveyed (Baltimore, Dallas,
Los Angeles, Miami, New York, San Francisco Bay Area and
Seattle).24


Source: Anal sex practices in heterosexual and male homosexual
populations: a review of population-based data

Wendy Heywood and Anthony M. A. Smith
Sexual Health, 2012, 9, 517–526
http://dx.doi.org/10.1071/SH12014

Unless we hypothesize that 55% of survey respondents were gay or bisexual, I'd say that the 57% of men in that age group reporting receptive anal intercourse would indicate that plenty of self-identified straight men enjoy it.

Of course, one might also propose that men who enjoy receiving anal intercourse are not straight. That would be silly. But one might.



Wish they were more forthright with such things. I am open to such traits in subs, not in my vanilla counterparts.
To better explain, I only like sluts in the context of submission. It makes for more inventive play time. A man hiding under the guise of heterosexuality while enjoying such activities is a user and a phony. And grotesque to me because of the fraud, lying and deception attached.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/25/2014 10:53:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins

quote:

And I would indeed suggest that most "straight" men would neither indulge nor enjoy receiving anal sex of any description.


I would agree to that. The quibble is what exactly is "most"? I think the percent is lower than you think. I think absent the cultural taboo that associates anal stimnulation with homosexuality, more straight men will enjoy anal sex, either through digital stimulation, dildos, strap-ons, or other toys.

I don't agree.
I still maintain, from my own perspective and personal experience (been swinging since the mid 1990's), that the majority of "straight" men (and that's the important bit that is the crux of the debate) just don't view the receiving of anal attention to be at all pleasurable in any way shape or form.
Ishtar's personal stats show that 70% of their male playmates did not enjoy it either.
And I strongly believe that more than a very good percentage of "straight" men actually baulk at the very idea of receiving anal play of any sort, let alone actual insertions.

Obviously, from a switch, Bi or gay perspective, the type of partners you tend to play with are more likely to enjoy such playtime and would therefore colour your straw polls or perceptions of such activity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
And since you wish to exit the realm of statistical studies

Most studies of these sorts are extremely artificial and an awful lot of them get debunked as not fitting real life.
If it were an extensive poll by the likes of Gallop or Mori, it would be more relevant and believable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
...we can talk about anecdotal data.

Everyone can come up with exceptions to pretty much anything and everything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
...So yes, most straight men don't like receiving anal stimulation, but some do.

I'm glad you agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
The question is where is the "most" and where is the "some." I think it's probably closer to a 85-15 split than a 95-5 split and if we could get more people to stop thinking that anal sex = gay then my speculation is that the percent will probably be closer to 70-30.

Even using your best speculation of 70/30, that is waaay more than FightingChains was saying when he stated that the pleasurable response was automatic; ergo, 100%.
And again, for most straight men, anal sex does indeed belong squarely in the realms of gay and Bi guys.

When you see a national survey, you get some pretty remarkable stats.
"In its 'Integrated Household Survey', the Office for National Statistics asks 178,197 people about their sexual identity - and the vast majority of them choose to answer.

93.5% of people said they were 'heterosexual' or 'straight', just 1.1% said they were 'gay' or 'lesbian' and 0.4% said they were bisexual."
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/oct/03/gay-britain-what-do-statistics-say

So the numbers concerning those that are likely to indulge in receiving anal play (Bi and gays) are miniscule compared to those that are actually "straight" and probably wouldn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
Straight men can be submissive to a Domme and not be considered not-straight, but if he finds pleasure when his Domme pushes a dildo up his ass, then his straight-ness is called into question? Wow. We live in very different worlds, and hey, viva la difference. :)

And I'm contending that the majority of straight men wouldn't enjoy it - even from a Domme.




bowedB4Women -> RE: hetro male slaves (3/26/2014 2:02:12 PM)

Cupcake, straight men don't enjoy other men in an
erotic way."

Nuff said



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