Submissive or masochist? (Full Version)

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painfreak01 -> Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 3:12:21 AM)

Hi, er...

I've always had a thing for a man torturing me against my will. Me hating him doing it, resisting, and failing. Enduring his strength and pain and torture and stuff. Feeling his muscles holding me down and using me in the most private way possible. I always... well, I never told my friends about this cos I thought I was so weird.

I don't like submitting, and I've never been interested in giving power to a man. I want him to take it forcibly and hurt me. I like his dominance, his strength and force and command, but I have no interest in giving in to him... all my fantasies are like... rape and torture. I think endlessly about this man, how his strength and force feels, how his growly commands and threats make me scared and excited at the same time. I know this is weird but I feel like these experiences of pain and anguish would make me a stronger woman... more empowered somehow. I feel like they would complete me.

Reading some of the stuff on this site I see lots of people into 24/7 submission and I have no interest in giving power over... I just fantasise about a man taking me and making me feel the most intense stuff, completely at his whim. Like it was taken from me, violated, used against my will.

Ok, I have spoken way too much, but I was hoping someone could answer the could answer this for me:

I have no idea what to call this... am I a bedroom submissive, or am I a masochist?

Thank you so much,

Chloe



DarkSteven -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 4:03:38 AM)

Hi, Chloe! Welcome to the site.

What you've just described is known as several different things. Resistance play, consensual nonconsent, and rape play.

It's an extreme kind of play. Should you decide to actually get a scene like this, I'd advise getting to know someone local to you who's been doing it. I know someone in the Denver scene who is very good at it, and very strong physically.

Regarding what label applies to you, I don't know. You simply have one strong fantasy. It doesn't really describe how the relationship would work after you both put your clothes back on.



mefisto692 -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 4:05:40 AM)

From your description, you enjoy rough play and pain. You don't want to submit. You may never become submissive. That is OK. You don't have to be both to enjoy your kink. You'll find there are many many variations and combinations of needs and wants. Chose a partner wisely and they can be met.



painfreak01 -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 4:16:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Hi, Chloe! Welcome to the site.

What you've just described is known as several different things. Resistance play, consensual nonconsent, and rape play.

It's an extreme kind of play. Should you decide to actually get a scene like this, I'd advise getting to know someone local to you who's been doing it. I know someone in the Denver scene who is very good at it, and very strong physically.

Regarding what label applies to you, I don't know. You simply have one strong fantasy. It doesn't really describe how the relationship would work after you both put your clothes back on.



Thanks Steven,

Well I like the idea of a man who is nice and caring and equal and we're normal and no dominant person or submissive person. Just sort of equals.

But then sex could vary from vanilla, to rough, to completely like that fantasy I wrote down, but he'd do it cos he loves me and knows how good I'd feel when he let go and took what he wanted. And then he'd cuddle me afterwards and we'd sort of fall back to normal again.

So just this type of stuff inside the bedroom. Nothing out. I like the idea that the man goes from being my equal to being completely dominant and wanting to hurt me and then returning to how we were before, and just knowing he's proud that I'm a strong woman and I could endure that for him.

I hope this helps. Thank you again.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:30:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01


Well I like the idea of a man who is nice and caring and equal and we're normal and no dominant person or submissive person. Just sort of equals.

But then sex could vary from vanilla, to rough, to completely like that fantasy I wrote down, but he'd do it cos he loves me and knows how good I'd feel when he let go and took what he wanted. And then he'd cuddle me afterwards and we'd sort of fall back to normal again.

So just this type of stuff inside the bedroom. Nothing out. I like the idea that the man goes from being my equal to being completely dominant and wanting to hurt me and then returning to how we were before, and just knowing he's proud that I'm a strong woman and I could endure that for him.



You're describing my marriage, except we do this in every room in the house, not just the bedroom. [:D]

Seriously, partly because of getting older and more selfish, partly because of an old TPE relationship going amiss, I do not submit at all.
Yet my husband can do some of the most depraved things man has ever conceived off with me, if he applies the proper amount of force.

We actually had a conversation about this this week, and we laid out our marriage as: No limits with force, soft core kink when playing around, and vanilla all the rest of the time.

We engage in no limits hardcore edge play involving rape, force, brutality and extreme pain, IF he applies force and restraints... which means that he can literally do anything he can conceive of, if he manages to force it on me. I don't even have a safe word, or a good way to indicate to him to stop. This is on purpose, as I literally don't want to have a way to be able to stop him. Otherwise I end up chickening out most of the time, and if I had a safe word, I think I'd use it at least half the time we play.
On the other hand, without force and restraints our sexlife is mostly vanilla, and the times we do stray into kink a little, it's most akin to the average vanilla wife dabbling a bit in kink to please her man, but not being all that interested. If he wants to do a plain over the knee spanking that's all fun and games, he better be really careful not to hit to long, hard, or in the wrong spot, because doing it the wrong way is a total turn off instead of a turn on.
He doesn't get obedience from me at all, without the threat of force. Something as easy as a command to go get coffee (versus a polite question to his wife to get coffee) needs to be backed up by force. If he wants to bark orders at me, he better make sure I actually fear disobeying in a real way, else he's just not going to get what he wants. Considering that I have a hardcore restraint fetish, he's joked that the easiest way to get me to follow an order is by making it extremely hard for me to actually carry it out. [:)]

Besides that the rest of our marriage is completely equal in everything. We don't have a 24/7 power dynamic, and I'm actually more likely to take initiative on a number of decisions than he is. He tends to be super laid back and easy going when not going for kink, so I usually get whatever I want all the time, and he spoils me rotten.
Of course that can change of the drop of hat with him dragging me of to the playroom in the basement at just about any time of the day or night... but hey... it works for us.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:39:49 AM)

Ish, I just had this image of you, being heavily restrained and wired up, and your hubby sitting there with a remote control and a cattle prod and you sort of slowly inch into the kitchen as you're feet are also bound so you can only take tiny steps, you pick up the coffee with your mouth (maybe a tray with a mouth handle) since your hands are tied to your back, and if you aren't fast enough, he zaps you....

Wonder what brought that quite visual image on....



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:49:14 AM)

Yeah that sounds about right. [:D]

Since the leashedlaura thread we've actually been thinking about a locked on shock collar precisely because it would make it easier for him to get coffee. Haven't come up with a mod yet where I can't just take a pair of kitchen scissors and cut the thing off though.
Steel works better for those purposes, considering that I'm a cheapskate, and so won't likely cut off expensive toys despite having a shop full of stuff that could be used for it. But then we're talking $$$$ for costume metal work, so it'll have to wait.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:52:19 AM)

Ever tried just a handcuff around the ankle? He could remove the chain and just have the single cuff, impairs movement a lot ;)



FightingChains -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:52:52 AM)

Label? I'd say masochist.

Why not submissive? She wants to endure the dominance, not obey it. But I gotta admit, the lines are a little blurred.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:59:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Ever tried just a handcuff around the ankle? He could remove the chain and just have the single cuff, impairs movement a lot ;)


No I haven't. I'll pass along the idea.

I'm currently waiting for these to show up, though they'll be eventually replaced by these or these (aesthetics are extremely important to us, we hate ugly gear) to give him easier leverage.
When every decent scene starts of by force overpowering, it's a lot of work to get started, and giving him the quick upper hand by providing easy leverage points has been on the wish list for a while (but I'm a gearslut, so just about everything out there is on the wishlits).

I don't actually have an issue conceptually with helping to bring about my own demise... I just won't stand still for it. [:D]



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 6:01:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FightingChains

Label? I'd say masochist.

Why not submissive? She wants to endure the dominance, not obey it. But I gotta admit, the lines are a little blurred.


If she's like me she's not a masochist at all, considering she doesn't get off on pain.

I get off on fear, not pain.

Fear without pain = good.
Pain without fear = bad.
Pain with fear = acceptable.



OsideGirl -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 9:44:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01


I have no idea what to call this... am I a bedroom submissive, or am I a masochist?

Thank you so much,

Chloe


You sound very much like a friend of mine. She's a masochist and has no interest in submitting. There is no power dynamic in her relationship, they just have full on kinky play sessions where she's the bottom.

I think the bastardization of the term BDSM causes part of the confusion.

BDSM is bondage/discipline/Sado-Masochism. It's basically the kinky sex. You can engage in BDSM and never engage in D/s.

D/s is Dominance and submission. It's power dynamic within a relationship. You can engage in D/s and never engage in BDSM.

Although, in most cases the two intersect.

The people that insist that D/s is part of the BDSM acronym do a disservice to the people that practice one or the other exclusively. And I think it confuses people into thinking that wanting kinky sex makes one a Dominant or submissive.

(Look at some of the male "subs" that come here with a laundry list of things they want done to them, as an example)



Kana -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 2:31:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01

Hi, er...

I've always had a thing for a man torturing me against my will. Me hating him doing it, resisting, and failing. Enduring his strength and pain and torture and stuff. Feeling his muscles holding me down and using me in the most private way possible. I always... well, I never told my friends about this cos I thought I was so weird.

I don't like submitting, and I've never been interested in giving power to a man. I want him to take it forcibly and hurt me. I like his dominance, his strength and force and command, but I have no interest in giving in to him... all my fantasies are like... rape and torture. I think endlessly about this man, how his strength and force feels, how his growly commands and threats make me scared and excited at the same time. I know this is weird but I feel like these experiences of pain and anguish would make me a stronger woman... more empowered somehow. I feel like they would complete me.

Reading some of the stuff on this site I see lots of people into 24/7 submission and I have no interest in giving power over... I just fantasise about a man taking me and making me feel the most intense stuff, completely at his whim. Like it was taken from me, violated, used against my will.

Ok, I have spoken way too much, but I was hoping someone could answer the could answer this for me:

I have no idea what to call this... am I a bedroom submissive, or am I a masochist?

Thank you so much,

Chloe

Oooh man, are you gonna be popular. A real life "Wham Bam, thank you ma'am"

Why care what label you get tagged with?
It's so....limiting.
Why not go about the much harder business of being painfreak01 and be who you are meant to be?
One thing for sure-there's gonna be a trillion applicants and somewhere in that dungheap there will be a diamond.
Not my diamond. Not anyone else's. But one whose wants/likes/cravings/values/tastes/desires fits you and yours they, which in the end is all that matters.
In the end, you'll have the only title that matters-We.



painfreak01 -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 3:41:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Oooh man, are you gonna be popular. A real life "Wham Bam, thank you ma'am"

Why care what label you get tagged with?
It's so....limiting.
Why not go about the much harder business of being painfreak01 and be who you are meant to be?
One thing for sure-there's gonna be a trillion applicants and somewhere in that dungheap there will be a diamond.
Not my diamond. Not anyone else's. But one whose wants/likes/cravings/values/tastes/desires fits you and yours they, which in the end is all that matters.
In the end, you'll have the only title that matters-We.


Thanks Kana. I appreciate what you said a lot.

I'd like to know what to myself because I want to be honest about who I am, and have the best chance of finding that perfect man I fit with. I don't want to suggest I'm something I'm not, and end up with a man I'll make unhappy, or be unhappy with. I suppose I feel like I just want to know myself and find the best and most honest way to describe myself when finding that person I want to be with.

I didn't mean to be rude, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. It's just important to me to know myself and how to describe this so I can find other people who are compatible with me. I felt like saying I was submissive was deceiving when I don't like submitting, but just enduring it.

I appreciate all your words of wisdom a lot. Thank you.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 3:58:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01

I'd like to know what to myself because I want to be honest about who I am, and have the best chance of finding that perfect man I fit with. I don't want to suggest I'm something I'm not, and end up with a man I'll make unhappy, or be unhappy with. I suppose I feel like I just want to know myself and find the best and most honest way to describe myself when finding that person I want to be with.


I'm sorry, but it's been my experience that as soon as you don't fit into boxes perfectly, they become useless.

When you say 'masochist' people immediately assume things. You've already noticed that people immediately assume things when you say 'submissive'.

The problem is that if you sorta fit the definition of the word, but not the general image/assumption people get when using the word, using the label creates more confusion then just starting off from a 'labels don't fit me because X, I like Y & Z, in ABC manner'.
This is because if you use a label that doesn't fit you in the general image people get when using that label, now you're not only going through the trouble of having them getting to know you, you're also fighting the label and consequent image people have of you.

When people meet somebody new, initially they don't have a clear image of that new person, and just use empty 'placeholders' for making up a view about that person. At that point it's easy to fill such and empty placeholder with an image that you're projecting about yourself, but once that placeholder is filled it's much harder to make people change their mind about you again, because people tend to want to hold on to certainties instead of unclearly defined images.

So when you say 'submissive' and later try to amend that view by clarifying that it only applies in atypical contexts, you're going to have to fight an already formed image of you, instead of just filling out an empty placeholder box. It's much easier to start of with a 'well I'm atypical' and start filling in details, to then have people on their own arrive to 'oh so you're only submissive acting in XYZ context, but not other times?' than to do it the other way around.

Sorry if that doesn't make any sense... I don't know how else to put it... but it's been my experience fighting with being placed in boxes for the last 15 years or so.



FightingChains -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/26/2014 5:00:46 PM)

I can identify with this partly. I'm a sadomasochist. My masochistic side revels in not only the physical suffering but the psychological suffering, so I enjoy consensual nonconsent, torture and rape play. The very lack of submission and still losing stokes my masochistic fire. My sadistic side enjoys forcing and exerting "dominance" and command and using that to torment etc. I'd say you were a masochist in that way.

But I certainly agree with Ishtar. When someone hears a label, they think they understand you. Be careful to outline who you are and define yourself. If you must pick a label for a site like this or Fetlife, I'd say you were a masochist or BDSM bottom, but as Kana has said: labels don't matter. Work out who you are, and accept that and be the best Chloe you can be.



JeffBC -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/27/2014 8:47:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01
I'd like to know what to myself because I want to be honest about who I am, and have the best chance of finding that perfect man I fit with. I don't want to suggest I'm something I'm not, and end up with a man I'll make unhappy, or be unhappy with. I suppose I feel like I just want to know myself and find the best and most honest way to describe myself when finding that person I want to be with.

I sympathize with this... really I do. I spent quite a few years wrangling over what label to apply to Carol and myself. Here's the rub. Just as Kana suggested the labels are all more like cartoon stereotypes than actual humans. They are limiting. Even worse, they are all poorly defined. In the end, I decided to go with "master" and "slave" because it seemed like a closer starting point for most people than "top" and "bottom" or "dominant" and "submissive". But in real life there is no substitute for actual communication. The labels just don't cut it.

In that same way when someone else tells me they are <insert BDSM label here> I simply wait patiently. I'm pretty sure the next thing out of their mouth is going to be an explanation of that. Honestly, if someone told me they were submissive in the real world I would not have a clue what that meant. The label "masochistic" carries a bit more meaning but not enough to clarify anything.

All that being said, my own little mental map says you're a "masochist" or a "bottom" rather than a "submissive" or "slave".



shiftyw -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/27/2014 1:56:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: painfreak01

I'd like to know what to myself because I want to be honest about who I am, and have the best chance of finding that perfect man I fit with. I don't want to suggest I'm something I'm not, and end up with a man I'll make unhappy, or be unhappy with. I suppose I feel like I just want to know myself and find the best and most honest way to describe myself when finding that person I want to be with.


I'm sorry, but it's been my experience that as soon as you don't fit into boxes perfectly, they become useless.

When you say 'masochist' people immediately assume things. You've already noticed that people immediately assume things when you say 'submissive'.

The problem is that if you sorta fit the definition of the word, but not the general image/assumption people get when using the word, using the label creates more confusion then just starting off from a 'labels don't fit me because X, I like Y & Z, in ABC manner'.
This is because if you use a label that doesn't fit you in the general image people get when using that label, now you're not only going through the trouble of having them getting to know you, you're also fighting the label and consequent image people have of you.

When people meet somebody new, initially they don't have a clear image of that new person, and just use empty 'placeholders' for making up a view about that person. At that point it's easy to fill such and empty placeholder with an image that you're projecting about yourself, but once that placeholder is filled it's much harder to make people change their mind about you again, because people tend to want to hold on to certainties instead of unclearly defined images.

So when you say 'submissive' and later try to amend that view by clarifying that it only applies in atypical contexts, you're going to have to fight an already formed image of you, instead of just filling out an empty placeholder box. It's much easier to start of with a 'well I'm atypical' and start filling in details, to then have people on their own arrive to 'oh so you're only submissive acting in XYZ context, but not other times?' than to do it the other way around.

Sorry if that doesn't make any sense... I don't know how else to put it... but it's been my experience fighting with being placed in boxes for the last 15 years or so.



^^ Excellent post!

I struggle with labels too. Its best to not worry about it and get on with your bad self.



Kana -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/27/2014 2:20:39 PM)

quote:

I'd like to know what to myself because I want to be honest about who I am, and have the best chance of finding that perfect man I fit with. I don't want to suggest I'm something I'm not, and end up with a man I'll make unhappy, or be unhappy with. I suppose I feel like I just want to know myself and find the best and most honest way to describe myself when finding that person I want to be with.

I'm a lunatic and I have crazy ideas. I think wildly irrational crap like, "Hey, why don't we actually like, get to know each other. I'll share who I am. You do the same. In doing so, we'll see if we're compatible."

Personally I think labels are for lazy people.
Humans are messy complex things that operate out of all sorts of motives, shift emotional gears, change, alter and grow.They don't fit in neat tidy little boxes.
Most folk are bit o this, touch of that, a whole lot of that thang way over there, topped with a dash of zest.
In attempting to label people, you minimize them, and, far more importantly, you lessen yourself.

And since I'm on a roll of a deranged nonsense spouting rant, let me suggest that any man unwilling to take the time to actually peer behind the label and profile isn't a man worth wasting time on.
Just saying


Wanders of into the horizon, feet firmly planted three feet in the air, whistling "Walking on Sunshine" as he goes



shiftyw -> RE: Submissive or masochist? (3/27/2014 3:25:53 PM)

I identify as a bottom if someone wants to get on me for whatever reason.
I don't submit outside the bedroom.
I don't like being "forced" to submit in the bedroom as I am more than willing.

I'm a masochist- but not suited will with sadists who are into heavy pain (I'm looking at Kana).
I tend to find elaborate rope bondage dull as ever, but I love some handcuffs or leather bindings to hold me down.
BEYOND THAT- I am kinda poly. But currently in a monogamous relationship because poly isn't really a need of mine. from there- poly has subsections of itself! I'm into the idea of unicorn myself, but I have done the totally two separate relationships before and been happy.
FURTHER BEYOND THAT- I consider myself bisexual- but I've never dated a chick exclusively- and have only had a handful of experiences with ladies, so can I really call myself bi?
EVEN BEYOND THAT!!!- I feel a bit more "topish" towards the ladies- especially if my top is making me service top.

Anyways- If I just say "Hey I'm a masochist bottom!" "Oh perfect! I'm a sadist top!" and suddenly I'm down in his basement all tied up in rope and he's hammering nails under my toenails...neither of us will have any fun. I mean, clearly just cause our labels mesh doesn't make us a match.

Labels are nice basic start- but its not what really makes you compatible. And I would argue- a simple label misrepresents you more than just discussing what you're looking for with someone you consider a potential match.



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