Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 9:55:06 AM)

Rather than made up scenarios that actually don`t actually exist in reality,like the threat of penis cakes[;)], here we have the SCOTUS is deciding whether or not "corporations" and businesses, can impose religious dogmas...... on their employees.



If yes,it`s going to open Pandora`s box and worse.....it`s going to cut both ways........


A Muslim owned business could impose Sharia law on Christians and Jews......Won`t that that fun.....


Discuss.....[:D]



Tkman117 -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 9:59:06 AM)

Not good period



JeffBC -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 10:05:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
A Muslim owned business could impose Sharia law on Christians and Jews......Won`t that that fun.....

And more.

What I think is that having health care provided by employers is utter insanity... yet another tool of enslavement. However, if we're going to say they must provide health care then I don't' think they get to decide what constitutes appropriate health care. That really ought to be up to a health professional... preferably a more or less impartial committee of same.

The other thing I think is that nothing happening in the SCOTUS has anything to do with the law, the constitution, justice or goodness. How this turns out will have more to do with backroom deals and politics as usual than anything I'd find good or appropriate.



DomKen -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 10:22:01 AM)

It's the underlying attempt at applying the RFRA to corporations that is problematic. If a for profit corp. can have religious liberties that can be protected under the law then we will establish a class of business exempt from nearly all workplace regulation.

Anyway the whole point of a corporation is to create a legal fiction that insulates the owners from the direct responsibility of owning the business. That insulation also makes the owners effectively anonymous so their religiosity does not transfer to the corporation. 



Phydeaux -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 10:44:53 AM)

THat's your pinion not fact.

Corporations are formed to shield assets. That's true. But whatever other effects have yet to be decided.

It is also nonsense to scare monger and say that Muslim businesses
Will be able to impose sharia law. Etc. There are already restrictions in place that businesses must follow when they serve the public.

Additionally of course customers always have the right to not patronize that business. With some exceptions businesses do not have the reciprocal right.

Finally, to rule against hobby lobby has quite some unfavorable implications. Suppose hobby lobby was directly owned by one of the brothers. No question then that he can not offer contraceptive coverage?

Of course not. So the question of corporation status is a mere Fig leaf. They are trying to set the precedent that all must offer contraceptive coverage.

But spouse even that's not true and the question of corporations we re sous. The administration still has significant due process issues because it means that engaging in a freedom of religion was is denied equal access to the privileges of business formation.

And fundamentally I don't think the supremes are willing to rule that the government's interest to promote insurance is more compelling than equal protection claims of Christians.

Ie your saying Christians can't own business.
I look for a half loaf approach. restricted to sub s etc.



mnottertail -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 10:51:59 AM)

No.  They are a for profit corporation trying to hide under a dodge of religion.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, goand sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

They don't follow that teaching.  What exactly was the teaching in the bible on contraception? I don't remember jeebus sayin anything about that.  And I have read that book.




KenDckey -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 11:08:06 AM)

I see it as a religious fight. One with just a few possible outcomes.

If it is publically held corporation then I don't see a dispute. If you as a shareholder don't like the policies of the company, sell the stock and the argument is over.

However, in privately owned business, then I see these possible outcomes.

1. If you don't like the law, close the business, fire the employees, and stop providing the service. This includes universities, hospitals, whatever, down to mom and pop stores. I believe that Hobby Lobby said they would choose this option if they lose at SCOTUS.

2. Nothing says that you have to work at a company if you don't like their religious policies. Quit and get your own insurance that provides what you want.

3. Downgrade the majority of employee compensation to less than 30 hours per week. This will lower the standard of living and force the employees to seek their own insurance.

There are probably other options. I won't dispute that. Just my 2 cents




dcnovice -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 11:59:19 AM)

FR

I wonder how much of Hobby Lobby's inventory comes from child laborers and/or sweatshops.




kdsub -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 12:10:16 PM)

I am glad the Supreme Court took up this thorny issue. They could have put it off or sent it back to lower courts.

Unlike some I believe Hobby Lobby is sincere and deeply troubled by this issue. I see no real economic advantage for them to pursue this in court and feel they truly believe this is government imposing its will on a religious belief.

As a company they are at least one of the better paying employers and do provide some benefits…much more than most service jobs.

When it comes to contraceptives they are not against all… just those they think can be a substitute for abortion…which they are very much against.

The above said I personally believe that all legal medical procedures and devices should be made available in medical insurance and the choice to use them or not should be a personal matter.

Employees of Hobby lobby should not be forced to follow the religious practices of the owners as a condition of employment. They are open to the public and employ workers without a religious affiliation requirement so they have no right to impose their beliefs on their workers.

Butch



Lucylastic -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 12:38:37 PM)

Corporations aren’t just people; they’re ill-informed people, whose factually incorrect beliefs must be upheld because they sincerely believe them anyway. I guess that’s why, at Hobby Lobby, they feed their 16,000 employees with but five loaves and two fish. What? The employees are still hungry? They believe you aren’t.”............jon stewart.



DomKen -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 12:44:05 PM)

If SCOTUS rules in favor of Hobby Lobby these things will then be allowed:
Health plans that only allow faith healers (Christian scientist owned corporations)
Health plans that do not allow blood transfusions (JW owned corps.)
And virtually anything else as there is no limit on what could be claimed is a religious liberty under RFRA.



kdsub -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 12:59:05 PM)

Oh I agree...but unless i am mistaken there are four practicing Catholics on the court. If not for that fact I don't believe Hobby Lobby would have a chance in hell...But as it is I'm afraid there will be some type of compromise ruling that will require some changes in the affordable care act.

I wish people would understand that religion can only function smoothly if it is a personal belief practiced in the church...home...and in personal accountability. I don't want to follow another religion or any religion at all if I am so minded and should not have to in America of all places.

If there is a God then let him be the judge of my actions not some Bible toting employer set on making sure I follow his God's commandments only because he controls my paycheck.

Butch



Owner59 -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:15:47 PM)

"Kagan Throws Scalia's Own Religious Liberty Arguments Back In His Face"




http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/elena-kagan-antonin-scalia-birth-control-mandate?utm_content=buffere893a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer



Phydeaux -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:22:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

No.  They are a for profit corporation trying to hide under a dodge of religion.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, goand sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

They don't follow that teaching.  What exactly was the teaching in the bible on contraception? I don't remember jeebus sayin anything about that.  And I have read that book.





Then you don't remember very well.

Thou shalt not murder.
"I knew you before you saw the light, in your mother's womb. Yet even if she forgets, I will not abandon you".

He was with God in the beginning.
through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made John 1:1 (God is the author of life).

Mathew 19:6. What god has made, let no man tear asunder. (ie., who are you to kill what god has created).
Proverbs 31:8 Open your mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. (speak out for those that can speak for themeselves)

Do not shed innocent blood.
—Jeremiah 7:6





DesideriScuri -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:24:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Employees of Hobby lobby should not be forced to follow the religious practices of the owners as a condition of employment. They are open to the public and employ workers without a religious affiliation requirement so they have no right to impose their beliefs on their workers.
Butch


But, they're not. They are still allowed to use contraceptives. It's Hobby Lobby saying that they aren't going to pay for it.



Phydeaux -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:26:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh I agree...but unless i am mistaken there are four practicing Catholics on the court. If not for that fact I don't believe Hobby Lobby would have a chance in hell...But as it is I'm afraid there will be some type of compromise ruling that will require some changes in the affordable care act.

I wish people would understand that religion can only function smoothly if it is a personal belief practiced in the church...home...and in personal accountability. I don't want to follow another religion or any religion at all if I am so minded and should not have to in America of all places.

If there is a God then let him be the judge of my actions not some Bible toting employer set on making sure I follow his God's commandments only because he controls my paycheck.

Butch



No one is arguing you have to follow religion.
Just give me the same freedom to practise the religion that i choose.

The surpreme court has already ruled the the federal government can not penalize the possession of drugs that are involved in a religious ceremony.
By the same measure the government cannot penalize people that choose to follow their religious precepts.

Why do you think there is an Amish exception to social security?
A conscientous objector exception for Jehovah Witnesses and Quakers?



kdsub -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:28:04 PM)

Then they will make the employees pay for it when they should not have to except for their religious beliefs. This is still imposing their beliefs on others no matter how you look at it... and it will be just the beginning.

Butch



Phydeaux -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:28:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

If SCOTUS rules in favor of Hobby Lobby these things will then be allowed:
Health plans that only allow faith healers (Christian scientist owned corporations)
Health plans that do not allow blood transfusions (JW owned corps.)
And virtually anything else as there is no limit on what could be claimed is a religious liberty under RFRA.



Except thats just bullshit.



Phydeaux -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:30:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I wonder how much of Hobby Lobby's inventory comes from child laborers and/or sweatshops.




Oh isn't that scurrilious attack so typical of the left. Make a personal attack in the absence of evidence. Base, vile, lies and innuendo.




kdsub -> RE: Ok....A thread about a REAL (as in reality)threat to our liberty.... (3/27/2014 1:30:53 PM)

quote:

No one is arguing you have to follow religion.
Just give me the same freedom to practise the religion that i choose.


You have that right now.... don't use the contraceptives if you don't want to... If you don't want to pay for insurance that covers all no matter their religion then get out of the public business...believe me that will not happen.

Butch



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