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Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 11:35:12 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		I hope to keep this simple, and clear. In looking through various threads, I am wondering, if a sub / slave, who desires great amount of pain receives it from their Master / Mistress and then has infection result requiring, and goes to the hospital.

What are the legal obligations of the health care workers when they see the bruises and cuts?
Have any of you experienced this your self or know of others who have?

If, the sub / slave insists it was their desire to be so beaten, would health care workers consider what was said or have no choice but to report to the legal authorities what they see?

I have gone through several of the various forums on here trying to find a thread on this subject and thus far nothing which directly speaks to this.

Thanks for any responses on this. CT
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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 12:22:45 PM   
Pyramus


Posts: 397
Joined: 5/14/2010
Status: offline 		In California, there is no such thing as consensual BDSM.
If there are "marks", the law has been broken.
Consensual or not.

(in reply to Crouchingtiger77)
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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 12:29:17 PM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		There is even a movement in most states to allow non-consent prosecution of domestic abuse. That means they would no longer even need the victim to press charges in suspected violence cases.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 12:44:25 PM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
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quote:

There is even a movement in most states to allow non-consent prosecution of domestic abuse. That means they would no longer even need the victim to press charges in suspected violence cases
thank you Dark Feather and Pyramus.

quote:

In California, there is no such thing as consensual BDSM. If there are "marks", the law has been broken. Consensual or not.


So, now when subs, slaves seek for the type of abuse which can lead to marks which can be interpreted as 'domestic abuse' the Dom / Domme ; Master / Mistress has no defense or so it appears.

This means that it would be equal to someone diving from say 100 feet into a body of water and you know if you do it right, you're save but if you slip a bit or a strong wind comes up you could be diving into something that could do you permanent damage. Well perhaps that example is over the top but maybe it works.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 1:03:37 PM   
poise


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77
What are the legal obligations of the health care workers when they see the bruises and cuts?
Have any of you experienced this your self or know of others who have?


This is a really interesting question. I'm not a masochist, so I probably never really thought of the legal ramifications
a sadist might get caught up in, simply for having some fun with another adult.

I have read quite a few comments here over the years though, where the poster(s) did have to explain some markings
to their doctor, but where nothing was deemed necessary to report to the law.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 1:32:48 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		FR~
An interesting point.
I dunno how it works in individual states over there but here, every doctor, physician, healthcare worker etc is obliged by law to report any suspicions of abuse, consensual or otherwise. If they don't, and it comes out later after any investigation that they failed to do so, those individuals face the prospect of being fired for neglect of duty and even prosecution for aiding and abetting said abuse.

You also have to consider that in many genuine abuse cases (not just in BDSM), the victim has made all sorts of excuses blaming themselves for being on the receiving end of the abuse and they themselves don't see it as abuse either. It's quite a common thing in many abuse cases whether brought by the victim or a healthcare professional.

It's a tough call for anyone in that situation and also one of the principal reasons why I won't indulge in such activity.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 1:54:51 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		This has been the law in at least a few states for some time, actually.








quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

There is even a movement in most states to allow non-consent prosecution of domestic abuse. That means they would no longer even need the victim to press charges in suspected violence cases.





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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 2:25:42 PM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
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quote:

It's a tough call for anyone in that situation and also one of the principal reasons why I won't indulge in such activity.


Freedomdwarf, do you think this means that persons who do go to the point of inflicting marks which if seen by a medical professional, that said acts then is like playing Russian Roulette?

The next question would be this, for those Dom's, Domme's, Masters, Mistresses who do take it to the point of leaving marks which can be intrepreted as abuse by others, what do you do to protect yourself without breaking the law in so protecting self?

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 2:37:18 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77

quote:

It's a tough call for anyone in that situation and also one of the principal reasons why I won't indulge in such activity.


Freedomdwarf, do you think this means that persons who do go to the point of inflicting marks which if seen by a medical professional, that said acts then is like playing Russian Roulette?

Over here, it most certainly would be Russian Roulette.
Suspected abuse must be reported by the healthcare professional otherwise their job and career is at stake.
Whether there are any subsequent charges to answer to at a later date is another ball of wax.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 4:00:22 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The way to avoid this is for the bottom to explain to their medical professional ahead of time that they enjoy rough sex. If you go in for a blood pressure check and are calm and relaxed when you warn your doctor that you've got bruises from a truly awesome night, he/she won't think anything of it. So then if the ER nurse feels she should call the police, it's easy enough to tell them to call your doctor who will tell her that he already knows of your propensities and there's nothing to worry about.

Yes, it may be technically illegal to have play that leaves bruises, but no prosecutor takes on a case he's sure to lose. And when the bottom promises to get up in court and attest that he/she had a great time, then the DA will find something better to spend his time on. Especially if they both tell the DA they're going to the media to point out the waste of money by the DA simply because he doesn't share their sexual tastes.

There are all kinds of laws on the books which are not enforced. Assuming you haven't broken her arm, or caused a limb to need to be amputated, no cop or prosecutor I know would agree to spend their time on a case that will be dismissed.

Additionally, this is when having a local community can be helpful. Especially if members of it are lawyers who are willing to serve as advisors to the police in these cases. It's also a little hard to insist someone was abused when the DM from the local dungeon will go into detail about safewords and how they handle edge play, and that the bottom had a great time.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 5:02:53 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I know that this is one of those things that scared ME when I played with the afore-mentioned "nut job" in Iowa. I HAD left marks...serious marks...and when she threatened to bring the cops if I did not vacate the premises, I vamoosed. When I got home and looked up Iowa law, I was quaking for about 2 weeks.

At this point, I will not leave marks that will last any longer than...hopefully...12-24 hrs UNLESS I am playing with someone that I know well OR with someone that I am in a relationship with. There are a couple of submissives that I know and have remained on good terms with that I would not play with in this manner because I also know that they are of the vindictive sort, if pressed.

As noted by another poster, when you play with someone you know is safe and they have informed their doctor that they enjoy some "rough and tumble", you stand a better chance BUT a lot does depend on the state you are in. New York is one of the toughest, having one of those statutes that does NOT require the "victim" to press charges and several high-ranking D.A.s who have seemed to made it their personal mission to save these poor,
misguided submissives...especially female submissives... from themselves.

I find it somewhat ironic...as a side note...that many of these D.A.s that are against "what it is that we do" are of the liberal disposition (only political statement I will make in this forum).

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 5:17:50 PM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		DesFIP
quote:

Especially if they both tell the DA they're going to the media to point out the waste of money by the DA simply because he doesn't share their sexual tastes.


The DA may share their sexual tastes but when said DA works every day putting away pure scum who commit rapes, physical assualts which result in injury to sometimes permanent injury, do you think they are going to then back off when someone insists that the broken arm the slave received was consensual in nature? or broken ribs, or other forms of injury.

It would be nice if there were ways of being able to have consensual not just torture, bruising, but what the slave craves and not have any type of reprocussions.

This thread is about how to be the sadistic person I am, to the level I would want to be and know I won't get hauled in for it.

Thanks to all for good posts and I do agree, if one had say a D.A friend, doctors, nurses, and wwould be able to tell them ahead of time what is going to happen, then perhaps you'd be covered, but

Telling a D.A. and then someone else learns what the D.A. has learned, or heard, and not taken action, well you think the other D.A's or media will let that fly. Foreknowledge of what is construed as being illegal and not acting on it/ That is another whole can of worms.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 5:19:19 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		~~FAST REPLY~~
In the ER here in Iowa I was asked if there was anyone at my home that I was fearful of. Also, when I had marks I stated matter-of-factly that it was consentual; the nurse smiled and went on with the rest of his/her questions.
However, if infection is present I would question who stopped the person from getting proper care before it got that bad!

< Message edited by catize -- 4/23/2014 5:21:14 PM >

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 5:21:25 PM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
Joined: 3/18/2014
Status: offline 		I suspect this would be a lot harder for women than it would be for men, and that's a terrible shame. If a man says "completely consensual, loved it" about some scars they think "ok, he's a little weird". If a woman says that, I can imagine they'd jump to "deluded poor woman in an abusive relationship".

As has been said, it's a good idea to have someone respectable you've told beforehand, like a doctor. They're likely to see the damage, so they generally have a good reason to know anyway, and they're respected in that field.

I couldn't imagine it going very far after you pull out a history of being a masochist, and prove you're clear-headed, intelligent, mature, and explain your history of wanting this before this relationship.

BDSM and the law have a very dubious relationship, indeed.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 6:22:35 PM   
InHisHeart


Posts: 630
Joined: 3/22/2014
Status: offline 		If I was questioned and police were brought in, I would never give them Master's name. They can't prosecute someone if they don't know who to prosecute. I've been in the ER for injuries (not bdsm related) and the only thing they asked me is if I feel safe in my home.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 7:11:51 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77

DesFIP
quote:

Especially if they both tell the DA they're going to the media to point out the waste of money by the DA simply because he doesn't share their sexual tastes.


The DA may share their sexual tastes but when said DA works every day putting away pure scum who commit rapes, physical assualts which result in injury to sometimes permanent injury, do you think they are going to then back off when someone insists that the broken arm the slave received was consensual in nature? or broken ribs, or other forms of injury.




If you do things so wrongly that you do break her arm, then you deserve some kind of consequence. I'm talking bruises from a paddle seen when you have a car accident. Not a top who obviously isn't safe to play with.

And the law preventing you from consenting to assault could easily be challenged. I was allowed to consent to my minor child being assaulted by playing contact sports. It would be easy enough to compare consensual s & m to that. Because if I'm capable of making that decision on behalf of a minor who is not considered capable of making such a decision, then I damn well am capable of consenting to it for myself.

Moreover, I'm in NY and the only cases I know of that have come to trial over the last 30 years were obviously nonconsensual. A man killed by his lover. Whether or not he meant this as murder or just fun choking doesn't matter, the lover died. And someone who agreed in an internet ad and when she tried it, changed her mind but was kept prisoner. If two cases in 30 years qualify as a tough state, I'd like to see what constitutes an easy one



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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/23/2014 7:47:16 PM   
quizzicalkitten


Posts: 312
Status: offline 		I went to the er for several issues, when having my ass beyond black and blue, when I explained that I was into bdsm, and it was consensual, they asked again, then left it alone usually. The one time the cops were called because the nurse was sure it was non-consensual, of the two cops that showed up, one was a previous play partner, he chucked and told the nurse there was nothing to worry about.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/24/2014 3:19:49 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry but most of the advice, as usual on CM anymore is bullshit.

Cops don't prosecute rape for the most part and the only way they are going to go after someone for consensual kink is if someone is a major asshole or fucked over a cops sister or something. If you are really stressing on this, go to any decent size city and watch for a BDSM and the law class put on by NCSF.

Certainly in CA its a non starter for a host of reasons, same goes for most states.

Now breaking arms or infections allowed to get seriously fucked up, medical staff are going to get pissy but in that case I don't blame them.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/24/2014 6:57:46 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		Hello Simply
Thanks for your reply and when I put the broken arm it is because , whether is it bogus or not but, in not a few places subs wanted extreme to the extreme and mentioned this was their desire.

Most on here or in world of Kink I think would find that a super hard limit even for their sadistic natures, as they are.

It is also to see what limits the most sadistic among you have as well. But, I did do google on bdsm and the law. and I found This, and there is an article on a BDSM case in the U.S. and mentions a couple of others also.

It appears that Germany is the place to go to get your 'sadistic' on.

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RE: Question on Bdsm and the Law - 4/24/2014 10:05:34 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
If you do things so wrongly that you do break her arm, then you deserve some kind of consequence.

Uh.... so you're not real big into consent then?

We have a poster on these forums who likes her play pretty damned rough... rough enough that it's not impossible to imagine being thrown around and something going wrong and presto, broken bone. I personally find this poster entirely level-headed and sensible in every respect. She just grooves on the extremes of real fear.

My own opinion is that bodies suffer injuries in the pursuit of fun all the time. I might quite a bit more likely break something roller-blading and I would see such a thing as "risk aware consensual roller blading".


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