RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (Full Version)

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hot4bondage -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 1:32:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Since mine was the third reply, I don't see how you can say I "missed" the middle ground and then point out that I did, indeed, mention it.

The police officer followed the suspect vehicle for five minutes and based upon his observation, he thought a stop was warranted.

What am I missing, this time?







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?


"I think the officer, based on a report and a good description, had every right to pull the car over."

Your analogy contradicts that statement. In your analogy, the officer takes the additional step of driving by and listening for a noise violation. He would do that because he has no idea how credible the report was. That's exactly what happened in this case. The officer followed the driver for 5 minutes and described the suspect's driving as irreproachable. How on earth is a stop warranted based on his observation? You mentioned "driving too perfectly" in an earlier post. Yes, officers are often trained to look for that, along with skin color, bumper stickers, etc. The courts have ruled repeatedly that none of those "indicators" rise to the level of reasonable suspicion.




DaddySatyr -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 3:43:08 PM)

Equating driving habits/practices to racism weakens the rest of your argument.








quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

You mentioned "driving too perfectly" in an earlier post. Yes, officers are often trained to look for that, along with skin color, bumper stickers, etc.





Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?




eulero83 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 5:51:00 PM)

FR

I've always been quite critical with us cops average conduct but in this case I re-raise ane say they had the duty to stop the car, if the veichle matched the description and the location was near the incident they would be negligent not stopping the car.




thompsonx -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 6:29:43 PM)

As I pointed out in my first post, if they had ignored it and the next time someone died, they
would have been at fault.

At fault for what? We all are,or should be by now,awae of the "winnebago decission". No obligation equals no fault.




thompsonx -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 6:34:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage



Of course someone could just use another phone or wave a cop down on the street if they really wanted to remain anonymous.


From personal experience, when I wave a cop down to report some incident, they always require me to identify myself before they will listen to anything I may have to say about timmy falling down the well.




thompsonx -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 6:41:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Equating driving habits/practices to racism weakens the rest of your argument.





You are the only one who has equated driving habits/practices to racism. Why would you think that listing some of the things that are used to profile, makes all the things on the profile list list equal to each other?




quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage

You mentioned "driving too perfectly" in an earlier post. Yes, officers are often trained to look for that, along with skin color, bumper stickers, etc.





Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?





njlauren -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/24/2014 8:56:40 PM)

The whole issue of probable cause is a tough one, precisely because it can be abused, it can be used for fishing expeditions and worse. When cops get a warrant, they have to show cause to a judge why they want the warrant, and they have to mention specifically what they are looking for and where they will look. If they are looking for a stolen car, they cannot look in drawers in your house and find a stash of drugs, if they did so, the evidence would be tainted.

Yet with probably cause, they have a lot more leeway. Leaving this particular case aside, a cop sees someone with a broken taillight, pulls them over, decides the driver is acting suspiciously, and can search the car, and finds a knife in the car, the guy can be arrested, even though all he pulled him over for was a broken tail light. In some cases, people pulled over for traffic violations had the trunk searched and so forth, something illicit was found and it was upheld.....whereas if a warrant was involved, they may not have been able to search the trunk, if they specified they were seeing if the car had a stolen motor under the hood.

In this specific case what it boils down to me (and first note, the law courses I took in grad school showed why I should never be a lawyer) is whether the anonymous tip was enough to pull the guy over. The reasonable man argument says would a reasonable person see the chain that led to the arrest, an anonymous tip says the car ran them off the road, they gave an accurate description, they saw a car that matched the description, it was driving very carefully, should that have set off alarm bells? I can understand a cop putting two and two together in this case, that the guy driving too carefully meant he was hiding something, add that to the claim the guy ran someone off the road, and it becomes turn on the siren.....

My thinking on it, though, is that this did not meet the standards of probable cause, and here is why. The anonymous tip led them to the car in question, and that to me is not the real problem, the problem is that the person in question was driving perfectly legally, yet the cop pulled them over. If the driver had been weaving, if they showed some signs of aggressive driving, that combined with the tip would be good grounds to pull him over. I don't have the information on hand, but did the driver of the other car that phoned in the tip give a license plate? If they had given the plate, there is probably cause because they were searching for a specific vehicle, if the tip was broad, 'a black camaro', then the cops could in theory pull over any black Camaro on the road and claim probable cause. If the reason for looking for the car is tremendously broad, as in a tip to look for 'a black sedan' or a 'black camaro' or 'black camry', you are giving too broad permission to pull people over and find things, it would be like asking for a search warrant of the garages of every person in a 20 mile radius who owned a black camaro because someone said a hit and run driver was in a black Camaro. The overall point being is that if a tip is so broad, that it leads to a wide dragnet, then to me that tip in of itself is meaningless, unless if because of the tip the cops observed a car matching the description of the car that was driving illegally, which was not true in this case. The whole 'driving too carefully' is something that I think if someone bothered taking it to SCOTUS would be thrown out, the whole 'acting suspiciously' is so broad as to be worthless IMO.

Scalia once in a while comes down on the side of rights, and in this case, he is I think pointing out the basic principle of our laws, when it comes to basic rights, something like probably cause, when there is doubt it is supposed to come down to protecting the right of the individual over the law, if you start allowing things like "they just didn't look right", "My guy told me so", you are giving the edge to the law to pull anyone over they feel like, which is basically allowing a police state. Was the driver in question a menace? Probably, but the cop had no way of really knowing that, he couldn't pull him over because someone claimed they ran them off the road (not without witnesses), and the "he was driving too well' is ludicrous. Saying "well, by pulling him over, they may have saved lives" is the end justifying the means, it would be like saying it was okay for someone to kill another person, because the other person likely was a murderer, one doesn't justify the other. I am no bleeding heart, I find a lot of the legal fine points that get accused criminals off are absurd, but in this case allowing a private tip and 'gut feeling' to act as probably cause is a very, very slippery slope we shouldn't go down. The fact that the cop ended up getting lucky doesn't change that the procedure stank, any more then broad based search warrants that turn up real crimes are not a good thing.




hot4bondage -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 6:28:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

FR

I've always been quite critical with us cops average conduct but in this case I re-raise ane say they had the duty to stop the car, if the veichle matched the description and the location was near the incident they would be negligent not stopping the car.


The officer followed and observed the suspect for 5 minutes. That's not negligent.




chatterbox24 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 7:04:54 AM)

If one is legal and your nose is clean, being pulled over should not be a concern.
Police officers have a job to do and to do it correctly, they cant be going through a bunch of red tape all the time. It hinders their progress.
Will there be a rotten apple or two or three in the bunch, you bet, but may they also be exposed for what they do.

In ANY office, in ANY religion, in ANY community, in ANY etc, you have the rotten ones and they shall be exposed.

I know of some stories of abuse committed by police officers but I know more stories of real justice being served.

Most likely, if someone is pulled over, it is more of an inconvenience type thing, and if that's what people cry about, that's ridiculous. Its selfish. Most likely, if the job is done right, they aren't going to bother you, for some small infraction anyway.




hot4bondage -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 7:19:27 AM)

Who's equating, and how is that relevant? Profiling is not reasonable suspicion. Officers are often trained to look for a variety of "indicators," knowing that none of them, in and of themselves, can be used in court to establish reasonable suspicion. Otherwise, the officer would have enough reason to make the stop as soon as he noticed the suspect "driving too carefully."




hot4bondage -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 7:27:40 AM)

Bill of Rights=red tape?

How do you know your nose is clean? Are you well-versed and up-to-date on every local, state, and federal law, code, and regulation?

Did you hear about this guy?

"New Mexico man sues over repeated anal probes by police"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/07/usa-newmexico-lawsuit-idUSL2N0IR2HG20131107




chatterbox24 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 7:32:30 AM)

Just making the point, that for justice to be served, people need to police themselves. Its an effort made by everyone. That is all. Just one opinion. I am taking into account many different accounts not just one single one.




igor2003 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 8:01:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

If one is legal and your nose is clean, being pulled over should not be a concern.
If one is legal and their nose is clean they should not have to put up with being hassled by the police.

Police officers have a job to do and to do it correctly, they cant be going through a bunch of red tape all the time. It hinders their progress.
That "red tape" is there for a reason. It is to keep the police from overstepping their bounds, and to try to insure that the innocent people are not pestered, prosecuted, or convicted.

Will there be a rotten apple or two or three in the bunch, you bet, but may they also be exposed for what they do.
A rotten apple or two or three in a bunch? There are entire jurisdictions where things like illegal profiling becomes standard policy. Do things like that help to apprehend and prosecute "bad guys"? Of course. But it also hassles, pesters, wrongly convicts, and often is a source of humiliation to people that are innocent. If you want the "good apples" to shine, then don't give them a tool that is so easily abused.

In ANY office, in ANY religion, in ANY community, in ANY etc, you have the rotten ones and they shall be exposed.
But how much damage can they do to innocent lives before what they do is noticed by the powers that be and something is done to "expose" them?

I know of some stories of abuse committed by police officers but I know more stories of real justice being served.

Most likely, if someone is pulled over, it is more of an inconvenience type thing, and if that's what people cry about, that's ridiculous. Its selfish. Most likely, if the job is done right, they aren't going to bother you, for some small infraction anyway.
So, it wouldn't bother you if you were stuck in traffic, running late for an appointment, needing to pick your kids up from school, or any of dozens of daily occurrences, and a cop pulls you over because your vehicle happens to match one described by an unknown tipster that is unwilling to come forward and make themselves known. The police don't know if it is a sincere grievance, or a prank, or a grudge. All they know is they have an ambiguous report, and lucky you, your car matches some unknown persons vague description. So go ahead and call me ridiculous and selfish. If I'm (as you describe above) "legal and my nose is clean" then I don't want to be stopped for any reason, and should be able to expect to be left alone.





Musicmystery -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 8:10:22 AM)

This is not new. I've been pulled over before because "a car matching your description" was reported.

We chatted a few minutes, I went on my way. Had I been clearly abusing substances, I'd have been arrested.




chatterbox24 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 8:17:12 AM)

Yes that is exactly what I meant, I am willing to go through minor inconveniences, yes I consider it minor, to justify catching bad guys.
Do I advocate harassment, absolutely not. Amber alerts, drug dealers who may try to sell to my babies, killers, etc, you bet I am willing to go through that.
If the system is abused then someone needs to vote a decent leader into office. I know about corruption, I wasn't born yesterday. ANd frankly considering the state of affairs in the world, I AM GRATEFUL.[sm=idea.gif][sm=lol.gif]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 12:27:09 PM)

This is what the SCOTUS blog says about the holding:

"Under the totality of the circumstances, the traffic stop precipitated by an anonymous but reliable tip to 911 complied with the Fourth Amendment because the officer had reasonable suspicion that the truck’s driver was intoxicated."

I've bolded all relevant sections because what the above does NOT say is that "an anonymous tip can be enough reason for the police to make a traffic stop." That's how you describe the ruling, but it's incomplete. Look again at the holding above. The following things have to be met for it to be a LEGAL stop:

1. Total circumstances must support the stop
2. The 911 tip can be anonymous but must also be RELIABLE
3. The officer must have reasonable suspicion of illegal activity

While this does give greater discretion to police officers and 911 operators to determine what seems "reliable" and what is "reasonable suspicion of illegal activity" it does not actually allow police officers to stop someone with just an anonymous tip. I can't just call in my neighbor's car description just for kicks. That would not meet this holding.




igor2003 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 2:39:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This is not new. I've been pulled over before because "a car matching your description" was reported.

We chatted a few minutes, I went on my way. Had I been clearly abusing substances, I'd have been arrested.


When you were pulled over, was it due to information from an "anonymous" tipster, or someone that the police spoke to in person or at least knew the identity of? When the police pulled me over because what I was driving at least loosely matched the description of a vehicle used in a bank robbery, I understood that. That information was most likely provided from witnesses at the scene, which the police would probably have gotten the name of, or from surveillance cameras. What I didn't like about that situation was the fact that they pulled me over more than an hour after the person had been caught. That occurred at the end of a work day (construction), I was tired, my feet hurt, it was summer and I had no AC in my pickup, I was legal and had a clean nose (as required by Chatterbox), and rather than being parked at the side of a busy highway I would have much preferred getting home and minding my own business.

I would also be more understanding in circumstances such as if a person witnessed a kidnapping where time was very much of the essence, but in most cases I think the police should have more to go on than an anonymous phone call that could easily be someone settling a grudge or pulling a prank.




PeonForHer -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 3:04:51 PM)

quote:

anonymous but reliable tip to 911


How the hell can an anonymous tip be reliable? This is inane.





PeonForHer -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 3:19:15 PM)

quote:

If one is legal and your nose is clean, being pulled over should not be a concern.


Chatterbox, it is a concern if anyone hassles you and wastes your time, unless you believe that anybody "in authority" has a right to hassle you and waste your time. Most people here plainly don't believe that. I agree with that, because I take it fully on board that I live in a democracy.

In case it should help you understand why: these people - police, or government agents of any type, are *servants* of the people, whose wages we pay. They have no more automatic right to hassle us and waste our time than does the plumber, the electrician or the builder you hire to do work around your home. These people do a job for you. It's important we realise that this is what governments, and all the people who work for these governments, are there for. They should know their place. And so should you: as one of their bosses - one of the people who pays them for what they do for you.




smileforme50 -> RE: R.I.P. 4th Amendment (4/25/2014 4:46:55 PM)

So where do DUI checkpoints fall in all of this? Police will be all set up to either stop every single car passing by or at least a large percentage of them....whether the driver is driving erratically or not.

Odd note about how there are a lot of very similar cars out there.....My mom used to have a Dodge Intrepid. She went shopping one time and when she came out of the store she walked over to her car, put her key in the trunk, put the groceries in the trunk, unlocked the driver's side, GOT IN....then when she looked up she didn't recognize what was hanging from the rear-view mirror. There was another IDENTICAL car in the parking lot parked 2 rows over from hers, and HER KEY FIT.




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