RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (Full Version)

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DangerousCrves -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/25/2014 1:49:03 PM)

Before I get slammed I'll preface my comment with this:

I have three daughter in the military (Army, Navy and Air Force) I also have three son in laws, numerous friends and family and myself am a 24 year military spouse. So to say I have a vested interest and respect for the military is a moot point.

Regarding this "secret" list and the deplorable conditions of VA hospitals I can't say I'm surprised.

HOWEVER

Not all the blame lies on Gov't and it's assorted agencies.

Some of the blame lies on our nations veterans and I'll tell you why.

A few years ago my then husband went to Kosovo with his Nat'l Guard unit. They were gone for an extended amount of time and it was a difficult process for everyone. My husband was a mechanic. Was it dangerous? Yes it was. Did he see combat? No. Did he didn't. For the most part their unit stayed on base. They ventured out a few times and other than a few bar fights in town my husband reported it was merely an annoyance and wished he could return home.

He did along with the rest of his unit. During their post deployment briefing a rep from the VA clinic nearby came to talk to them. Various subjects were discussed (anyone who has been deployed knows the standard debriefing you receive). The VA rep urged anyone suffering to make an appointment. Sounds good right?

Until the VA rep condoned anyone suffering from "headaches" or "bad thoughts" to come to VA and they would get rated for PTSD. The VA rep made it extremely clear that if you had allergies you could come in and get rated and get money. Even going as far as saying "You deserve this".

My husband who has been both a Marine and in the Army was appalled at the rep but perhaps even more appalled that his "friends" started to come up with bogus claims. We have a friend who was discharged from the Army on Failure to thrive and went back to claim she'd been raped (no reports filed) while she was in A school. She's rated at 10% and had her GI bill reinstated. Another friend of ours claims he developed nasal drip in Kosovo and now is rated. Knee and back problems?? No problem let's blame it on your deployment.

I am NOT saying that all claims are bogus, and on some level I can't blame our veterans that feel shafted and find they want to 'get back' at the military, but the blame doesn't lie solely on government and the VA. The system is flawed. Overtaxed systems with not enough time/workers/money to compete with less than moralistic individuals.



chatterbox24 -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/25/2014 2:30:08 PM)

What???? I just learned a new language. Ah we we
I have a hobo bag packed up.
Sounds to good to be true but wow that is awesome.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcus000

Look guys. I know you love to piss on France and socialism. Pure American ignorance. Because you are misinformed and have drank the cool aid. "America=best in the world etc.
But believe me. As a French citizen who loves the American spirit. I can tell you that you are shafted everyday by tour Republicans and those who claim to uphold that old document that needs a serious rewrite. Your constitution (which we helped you write ). Please inform yourselves about what goes on in other countries especially Europe.
My elderly mother broke her knee. She had an MR I in 2 days. Was operated on and had a visiting nurse visit her home ever 2 days.
When the metal braces were removed, she had a physical therapist visit 3 times per week. Now all's well.
She isn't wealthy. A retired bank employee. She just had a very minimal copay.
college is free. That is why so many scientists and teachers come to the US for a few years to enjoy the popular culture. Free of loans. And why a valuable organisation like "doctors without borders" Is staffed by many young french doctors. No loans to repay. Public education at all levels is stellar and the huge middle class has a real chance to be productive.
Pregnant women get 6 months paid leave.
vacation is 5 weeks per Year.
Unimployment is a bit over a year.
Of course no system is perfect and France is now going through some economic troubles but no worse than the US a few years ago.
Problems occur and are processed.
I implore you to not believe the Republican hype that plays on that long gone pionner spirit.
Do your research. Look at other systems internationally. And realize what is being done to you.




thompsonx -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/25/2014 2:54:17 PM)

He did along with the rest of his unit. During their post deployment briefing a rep from the VA clinic nearby came to talk to them. Various subjects were discussed (anyone who has been deployed knows the standard debriefing you receive).


I have been deployed more than a dozen times and not once did I ever get a "debriefing".

The VA rep urged anyone suffering to make an appointment. Sounds good right?

Until the VA rep condoned anyone suffering from "headaches" or "bad thoughts" to come to VA and they would get rated for PTSD.


Are "headachs and bad thoughts" symtoms of ptsd?


The VA rep made it extremely clear that if you had allergies you could come in and get rated and get money. Even going as far as saying "You deserve this".


If someone developes an alergy while in the military why wouldn't the military/va be responsable?

My husband who has been both a Marine and in the Army was appalled at the rep but perhaps even more appalled that his "friends" started to come up with bogus claims.

Why does your husband choose to be friends with liars,cheats and thieves? Has he ratted them off yet? Why not?



DangerousCrves -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/25/2014 7:15:42 PM)

I have been deployed more than a dozen times and not once did I ever get a "debriefing".

I find it hard to believe that in all your deployments FAP or ACS never came to talk to you and your family. What service did you say you were in?

To my knowledge headaches are not a symptom of PTSD. I was making a point of reference that the VA Rep made it clear they should come for anything.

PTSD symptoms-NIMH
1. Re-experiencing symptoms

Flashbacks—reliving the trauma over and over, including physical symptoms like a racing heart or sweating
Bad dreams
Frightening thoughts.

Re-experiencing symptoms may cause problems in a person’s everyday routine. They can start from the person’s own thoughts and feelings. Words, objects, or situations that are reminders of the event can also trigger re-experiencing.

2. Avoidance symptoms

Staying away from places, events, or objects that are reminders of the experience
Feeling emotionally numb
Feeling strong guilt, depression, or worry
Losing interest in activities that were enjoyable in the past
Having trouble remembering the dangerous event.

Things that remind a person of the traumatic event can trigger avoidance symptoms. These symptoms may cause a person to change his or her personal routine. For example, after a bad car accident, a person who usually drives may avoid driving or riding in a car.

3. Hyperarousal symptoms

Being easily startled
Feeling tense or “on edge”
Having difficulty sleeping, and/or having angry outbursts.

Hyperarousal symptoms are usually constant, instead of being triggered by things that remind one of the traumatic event. They can make the person feel stressed and angry. These symptoms may make it hard to do daily tasks, such as sleeping, eating, or concentrating.


How would seasonal allergies be the military's fault? That's like saying you got a cold and now it's your workplace's fault and they should pay for your time off. Getting sick is a life occupational hazard.

I'm really not sure what branch of the military you're in, but one doesn't "rat" out fellow soldiers, airman, Marines and the like. You think Band of Brothers was just a movie? Besides..what good would it do to say "Oh Sgt. Smith over there? Yeah..his back doesn't hurt"

Who the hell would listen or care? The VA supposedly kept a secret list (aka doctoring books)..you think they would care if Joe over there was lying?

My point is..the VA for whatever reason tells these soldiers to lie to become rated and get money. I'm not sure who that benefits other than the soldier and perhaps the VA. The problem is not the money as much as it that it creates a backlog of cases and reviews..



BamaD -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 8:40:25 AM)

"I am NOT saying that all claims are bogus, and on some level I can't blame our veterans that feel shafted and find they want to 'get back' at the military, but the blame doesn't lie solely on government and the VA. The system is flawed. Overtaxed systems with not enough time/workers/money to compete with less than moralistic individuals."

It is the government and the VA that wets up the system, so this in no way changes their guilt.
Much as I hate to agree with Thompson why are you still friends with these people?
Or do you just mean people he works with?



TheHeretic -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 9:46:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There are already "death panels," and have been for quite some time. Hospitals have contingency plans. If there's an epidemic of the flu, and there aren't enough respirators, they have to decide who gets them and who toughs it out. Those plans are in place. For example, 35 year old mother with four kids is gonna get a respirator before a 65 year old man.



Y'know, Muse, there is a possibility of a good conversation here. Why throw a monkey wrench by being deliberately obtuse? Contingency triage practices are not comparable to calculating how long baby-boomers who think they get to live forever should be allowed to drain the coffers.



Musicmystery -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:05:07 AM)

Why not? Of course it is. The entire "sky is falling" objection is the notion that people might make these decisions when needed. We do this now. And that's what long term availability does as well -- make those decisions.

And naturally, we already allocate health care to those who can pay.

Hardly "a monkey wrench." The "good conversation" is going to start when we stop throwing around crap like "death panels."



DaddySatyr -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:06:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Y'know, ... there is a possibility of a good conversation here ...



I know this may seem like shameful self-promotion. I swear that it isn't. I keep going back to this post, particularly what I think is at the real issue of government "run", single-payer health care:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I would be all for basic health services paid for by the government (pronounced: "our tax dollars") as long as writing the check was the only involvement of the government. Until that gets worked out, I stand opposed to what gets thrown around as "single payer" health services.











Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



Musicmystery -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:16:04 AM)

The problem with that, Michael, is that who gets to be that single payer? And who oversees it? Like it or not, both come down to government.



DaddySatyr -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:21:30 AM)

Tim, I think that's not exactly right.

Anything that the "government" pays for, it pays for with our money .

Now, I'm not dumb enough to think that we can all have a say in what goes on with government spending but there has to be a way to set the system up where the over-seeing authority has no power to deny treatment to anyone.

I think such an authority should be able to hold doctors and other health care providers responsible and to keep them in line, regarding pricing but I never want anyone who is paying into the system to be told by any government representative anything close to: "Sorry. You can't have that procedure as it isn't cost effective".








quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The problem with that, Michael, is that who gets to be that single payer? And who oversees it? Like it or not, both come down to government.





Screen captures still RULE! ya feel me?



MercTech -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:25:59 AM)

What I remember of post deployment debriefings was a ton of paperwork you had to do before you could hit the pier.

Customs forms for returning in-conus
Non disclosure form not to talk about mission parameters
Checklist to initial on each bullet that you had right to counseling, yakety yakety etc.
All while we were held on the mess decks while the drug dogs inspected the ship.
All the while listening to some medical wonk telling everyone not to jump on their girlfriend the first thing and to give them some space to get accustomed to us getting back... usually led to a big fight because your lack of interest showed you had been unfaithful.



Musicmystery -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 10:49:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Tim, I think that's not exactly right.

Anything that the "government" pays for, it pays for with our money .

Now, I'm not dumb enough to think that we can all have a say in what goes on with government spending but there has to be a way to set the system up where the over-seeing authority has no power to deny treatment to anyone.

I think such an authority should be able to hold doctors and other health care providers responsible and to keep them in line, regarding pricing but I never want anyone who is paying into the system to be told by any government representative anything close to: "Sorry. You can't have that procedure as it isn't cost effective".








quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The problem with that, Michael, is that who gets to be that single payer? And who oversees it? Like it or not, both come down to government.





Screen captures still RULE! ya feel me?

Begs the Question. A private or non-profit would still have to be set up by the government, and they would still be managing scarce resources. Unless you're going to create a separate power structure -- mandated by government, oops -- it will still come down to government.

Whether government does this great, crappy, efficiently, without regard to cost, is still a governmental decision.

Not simply this government - all government. We could all vote online, and still, that's allocation.



TheHeretic -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 11:12:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I would be all for basic health services paid for by the government (pronounced: "our tax dollars") as long as writing the check was the only involvement of the government. Until that gets worked out, I stand opposed to what gets thrown around as "single payer" health services.








I don't see how we make that work, Michael. Look at the fraud we get in MediCare, and expand that to a view of where it would go in a total healthcare package. Fraud then leads to ever increasing regulation, which leads to ever increasing bureaucratic burdens and costs to meets the regulatory requirements, and a downward spiral in the quality of care.

I say, if we are going to do it, then nationalization is the way to go. It's a big "if" though. There are obvious problems to overcome. How do we maintain incentives to develop new drugs and treatment methods, for example?

I also think the only way to handle geriatrics is with a decreasing level of entitlement with advanced age. At some point, it's going to reduce to covering prescriptions, check-ups, flu shots, and hospice. Those who think they meed to be sustained at all cost had better buy into some sort of supplemental plan.



DaddySatyr -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 11:13:18 AM)

If the government would have a say as to who does or doesn't get what treatment, then I continue to stand opposed.

I understand that the government would have to make some kind of "separate" entity and I don't want to quibble over a word but, nothing the government does is "private". They're our government. By definition, they are public. They would need some sort of non-profit, I guess but all of that doesn't matter to me so much as government having the ability to decide who lives and who dies.

I was diagnosed with something that will eventually kill me about two and half years ago. I have seven and a half "good" years before the deterioration really starts to get bad.

My lady and I were talking the other day about a hypothetical situation where we're both in danger. Only one of us can be saved. For me, it was a no-brainer. I have 7-8 years of real "life" left and then, I'm a burden. If all goes well with her, she has 30 years left.

We argued it back-and-forth and she finally saw my logic. The point is: I made that decision for myself; not some government bean counter.








quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Begs the Question. A private or non-profit would still have to be set up by the government, and they would still be managing scarce resources. Unless you're going to create a separate power structure -- mandated by government, oops -- it will still come down to government.

Whether government does this great, crappy, efficiently, without regard to cost, is still a governmental decision.

Not simply this government - all government. We could all vote online, and still, that's allocation.





Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



TheHeretic -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 11:32:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
The "good conversation" is going to start when we stop throwing around crap like "death panels."



But "tea party" is hunky-dory, Muse? The useless shit comes from both sides.

"Death panels," as previously noted by Michael, is a colorful phrase to describe the bean-counters doing the cost/benefit analysis, but at least in a private system you can be your own bean-counter, or at least have some options about which set you get.

That's why I think my cut-off age suggestion is the right approach.



Musicmystery -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 11:45:10 AM)

What the hell are you on about? "Tea Party" is a name a group chose for themselves. What would you prefer to call them?



DaddySatyr -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 12:01:30 PM)

In fairness to Rich; I did bring up the term but in doing so, I also said that it was "overly colorful".

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Then we have the claim of "Death Panels". While that might be an overly colorful name, wouldn't bureaucrats, being involved in the "chain of command" for medical services essentially have the power of life and death over some situations? You bet your ass they would!




I don't know what else to call a group or "panel", if you will, that has the ability to make life and death decisions over other people?







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?



TheHeretic -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 12:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What the hell are you on about? "Tea Party" is a name a group chose for themselves. What would you prefer to call them?



Go back and find the specific reference on the first page of the thread, Muse. It has nothing to do with the topic, and was just a lame attempt at a smear from the dumbass who didn't think his little thread out very well.



TheHeretic -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 12:10:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


I don't know what else to call a group or "panel", if you will, that has the ability to make life and death decisions over other people?





The Ministry of Life, of course. [8|]



Musicmystery -> RE: 'State of the Art Healthcare' in the VA Hospitals. (4/26/2014 12:11:04 PM)

If it has nothing to do with the topic, that would explain why it didn't enter my points, wouldn't it.



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