RE: What do the atheists get right?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: What do the atheists get right?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What do the atheists get right?

Page: << < prev 12 13 [14] 15 16 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/13/2014 4:29:29 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Yes the religious mission is to spew hate, cause terror, and make people very upset and offend them. Oh yes yes yes that's what religious nuts are all about. Good one!!!!

You can see how people would get the wrong idea, right?

I mean there's the huge widespread effort to behave like a hate group:

quote:

ORIGINAL: https://www.barna.org/barna-update/teens-nextgen/94-a-new-generation-expresses-its-skepticism-and-frustration-with-christianity#.U3JRsld9dbU
Today, the most common perception is that present-day Christianity is "anti-homosexual." Overall, 91% of young non-Christians and 80% of young churchgoers say this phrase describes Christianity. As the research probed this perception, non-Christians and Christians explained that beyond their recognition that Christians oppose homosexuality, they believe that Christians show excessive contempt and unloving attitudes towards gays and lesbians. One of the most frequent criticisms of young Christians was that they believe the church has made homosexuality a "bigger sin" than anything else.

There's the Catholic criticism of American nuns for actually trying to help people instead of behaving like a hate group. I was really hopeful that the new pope would put an end to that idiocy but no such luck:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/apr/15/world/la-fg-pope-nuns-20130416
Pope Francis reaffirms crackdown on U.S. nuns...

...At the time, the Vatican dispatched an archbishop to rewrite the group's statutes and set up reeducation programs to bring nuns back into line, alleging that leaders of U.S. orders had challenged the church's teachings on women's ordination and ministry to homosexuals.

Oh and while I'm at it remember that atheist village I was talking about, their big problem is that their religious neighbors like to shoot and throw grenades at them.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 261

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/13/2014 5:02:23 PM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Oh hello my lil stubborn goat. Of course I see it . Remember I am not catholic and I have known nuns, who were American and they were compassionate to all, regardless of sexuality etc. lovely people.
I give Ben a break because I do believe he is compassionate toward certain causes. If you remember right Ben has even told me I have it all wrong.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 5/13/2014 5:03:34 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 262

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/13/2014 5:42:55 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

kirata - I'll elaborate...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

These are people - not religions.

Well of course, but "inspiring conflict and violence" describes an effect of religion on the persons who follow it, so in this context I think it's a distinction without a difference. Also, historically and from your own examples, that effect seems to be rather sporadic and unreliable.

I'll grant there are textual passages in the canons of our Western monotheisms that can readily be turned, and have been, to unfortunate purposes. But other factors influence whether or not they will be. Religion has also inspired much love and selfless giving.

Most people intuitively reject the darker side of these texts. If put to argument, they will say that other teachings override them. So it has often seemed to me that it would be sensible, then, simply to deny their religious merit by removing them from the Canon altogether.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

kirata - I'll elaborate...

Please don't feed him.

People who aren't cut out to be cooks shouldn't be in the kitchen offering advice.

K.

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 263

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 12:31:53 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
And, yes, I didn't like it when someone questioned your virginity. That kind of attack happens when people have no substance to offer, so they attack the other speaker/poster. Pathetic.

I'm going to disagree with that. BM typically doesn't walk us through his reasoning he simply asserts his opinions as fact, at which point what his qualifications are to determine whether his opinion should be taken at all seriously becomes quite relevant.

It's not the most reliable means of determining a claims validity but it certainly is a frequently used one in our society. A formalized example would be expert witnesses:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Expert+witnesses
expert witness n. a person who is a specialist in a subject, often technical, who may present his/her expert opinion without having been a witness to any occurrence relating to the lawsuit or criminal case. It is an exception to the rule against giving an opinion in trial, provided that the expert is qualified by evidence of his/her expertise, training and special knowledge. If the expertise is challenged, the attorney for the party calling the "expert" must make a showing of the necessary background through questions in court, and the trial judge has discretion to qualify the witness or rule he/she is not an expert, or is an expert on limited subjects.

In for instance an insurance dispute the court might listen to the opinion of oh say a licensed electrician with decades of experience where as a guy who couldn't even manage to plug in a lamp would be laughed out of the room.

Similarly if someone is making assertions around here about relationships, well what's his level of experience? Are we talking someone who's lived the lifestyle or someone who's never even succeeded at plugging his lamp in?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 5/14/2014 12:33:31 PM >

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 264

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 12:59:07 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Well of course, but "inspiring conflict and violence" describes an effect of religion on the persons who follow it, so in this context I think it's a distinction without a difference. Also, historically and from your own examples, that effect seems to be rather sporadic and unreliable.

True. THAT's why I prefer atheism!

I'll grant there are textual passages in the canons of our Western monotheisms that can readily be turned, and have been, to unfortunate purposes. But other factors influence whether or not they will be. Religion has also inspired much love and selfless giving.

Here, you attribute goodness to the influence of religion, where I assign credit to that natural goodness inherent in all healthy humans.

Most people intuitively reject the darker side of these texts. If put to argument, they will say that other teachings override them. So it has often seemed to me that it would be sensible, then, simply to deny their religious merit by removing them from the Canon altogether.

Kudos for being one of the many throughout religious history to have that thought, although I must admit to being more impressed with those who say... got burned at the stake after being physically and sexually tortured for sharing that position. And then, the religious murderers rewarded themselves by taking all real estate and material property of the victims, for themselves.

What doesn't seem to be understood is that it's a conscious decision to leave in the evil-inspiring dogma. And, as referenced above, religious people go to violent lengths to preserve the evil doctrines, especially when challenged by a different point of view.

The notion of just not giving the bad parts weight is like saying, that serial killer has a great singing voice that makes people smile.

I'm with Bill Maher on this one. All religions are bad.

The example I presented about my friends of various religions was to show that each had to renounce their doctrines to be able to act in loving ways. It's not one religion. It's all of them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

kirata - I'll elaborate...

Please don't feed him.

GS - Seeing differences CAN be a challenge. I'm a woman and you needn't be fearful of my words or presence here. It's all good.

People who aren't cut out to be cooks shouldn't be in the kitchen offering advice.

My inner Domme must be here because if I want to be in the kitchen offering advice, of course I'll tell the cooks what I wish. Kind of hilarious because I've ALWAYS had cooks and I'm terrible at it!

K.
[/font][/size]

ETA - My closest friends, of many decades, are religious people. I love some religious people. It's just, to share love with this kind of variety of friends, has required all of us, to go against doctrine.

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 5/14/2014 1:13:25 PM >

_____________________________

Talk about loving travel!!! My BDSM journey to Switch took me to these places...
Previously known as:
sub - TwoHeartsBeatOne
Domme - Lady Q

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 265

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 1:08:42 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

GotSteel,

I strongly agree that it is fair game to ask someone who engages in debate to back up their position with resources, credentials or here... links to authoritative facts.

That is different from getting personal, and I think that virginity is a personal issue. Even professional witnesses in a legal case do not need firsthand experience. In short, they don't have to be murderers, or murder victims, for that matter, to assert an opinion on a murder.

It's been my experience, that people will debate facts until they run out of them. Then, some admit to defeat, or to a shift in perspective, or simply come the the understanding that opposing points of view may both be valid. The less intelligent, lacking mental options, go to the baser stuff - and sink into personal attack. I suspect that these types are the same ones who really get ruffled and can't bear to let some opposing view to their own - just stand.

To me, once someone does that, I hit the hide button because the views of that kind of person are too limited to interest me any further. I would not hide anyone for offending me or being stupid or for disagreeing with me completely. That's all good.

I just find it distasteful to make personal attacks and won't lower myself to participate.

But, you are welcome to enjoy it as much as you like, you know?

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 5/14/2014 1:20:05 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 266

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 4:02:39 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
The less intelligent, lacking mental options, go to the baser stuff - and sink into personal attack.

You mean like what you're doing here?

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 267

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 5:18:20 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
GotSteel,

I strongly agree that it is fair game to ask someone who engages in debate to back up their position with resources, credentials or here... links to authoritative facts.

Questioning someone's qualifications to speak authoritatively is inherently personal. Whether one questions their formal education aka credentials or their informal education aka personal experience both are personal information are they not?

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 268

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 5:32:04 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

Where did I attack anyone personally? The quote you chose is generic, general and really, a common view.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
The less intelligent, lacking mental options, go to the baser stuff - and sink into personal attack.

You mean like what you're doing here?

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 269

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 5:53:34 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
GotSteel,

I strongly agree that it is fair game to ask someone who engages in debate to back up their position with resources, credentials or here... links to authoritative facts.

Questioning someone's qualifications to speak authoritatively is inherently personal. Whether one questions their formal education aka credentials or their informal education aka personal experience both are personal information are they not?

Asking others how they know something or where they learned of the information they present is like saying, "Where can I learn that, too?" and it expresses interest. Some people's egos get in the way of perceiving the question in that way because they expect others to accept what they say as true and accurate, just because they said / wrote it. LOL

On this board, I give the most weight to the posts in which the author offers a window into their individual and unique experience(s). I can't know that, except through them sharing it.

It appears that you think I equate intelligence with formal education and degrees. I don't. What most formally educated people do learn, though, which affects communication, is that a strongly held, personal belief, or opinion, is not good enough for a debate. When we debate others, it's time to back it up. "I believe this strongly, so therefore, so should you." is not an acceptable or respectable stance for anyone who proposes to inform another.

So, "Back it up" refers to sharing credible resources. A news article, a book, an interview, a photo, etc... something beyond the self. THAT is not personal at all. It's the opposite of personal.

Just to be clear... personal, first-hand experience, is NOT something I would attempt to debate. I take people at their word and hey, how would I know what THEY experienced? My comments are about debate - we don't debate people, we debate topics and points to either support or debunk.

So, when people disagree, and then start to attack each other, eh... stupidity. I prefer intellectual discourse.

BTW, why is this important to you? Seriously, I've forgotten... is it because you are the one who attacked BM by making his virginity status a part of a debate? Or, are you just jumping in there in defense of personal attacks? You lost me.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 270

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 6:44:09 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I'll grant there are textual passages in the canons of our Western monotheisms that can readily be turned, and have been, to unfortunate purposes. But other factors influence whether or not they will be. Religion has also inspired much love and selfless giving.

Here, you attribute goodness to the influence of religion, where I assign credit to that natural goodness inherent in all healthy humans.

If you're going to claim that religion inspires conflict and violence, assigning the blame to religion instead of to the darker side of human nature, you can't just turn around and deny in the same breath that religion inspires love and selfless giving too, assigning credit for that to our "natural goodness".

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/14/2014 7:08:48 PM >

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 271

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 6:54:27 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
It appears that you think I equate intelligence with formal education and degrees.

I wasn't making an inference about how you think, I was making a reference to what you said.

You strongly agreed that "credentials" were fair game. I'm pointing out that I don't see the difference in terms of "fair game" between asking about formal education and informal education.

I'd consider contesting either the formal or informal education of someone to be personal and am wondering how you differentiate the two?

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 272

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 6:56:15 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Yes the religious mission is to spew hate, cause terror, and make people very upset and offend them.

Sad for this church lady to say, there are times it does seem like that:

-- The Inquisition
-- Pogroms
-- Hindu-Muslim clashes in the Subcontinent
-- The Salem witch-hunt.

You get the idea.

On a smaller scale, I learned yesterday that a gay friend's dad (a "Christian" pastor) boycotted the son's legal same-sex wedding. A handful of ancient, probably misconstrued, patriarchal text snippets mattered more to him than the life and love of his own flesh and blood.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 273

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:01:03 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
BTW, why is this important to you? Seriously, I've forgotten...

Having discussions about how to have discussions is kind of my pet topic.

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 274

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:06:11 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

BTW, why is this important to you? Seriously, I've forgotten...

Having discussions about how to have discussions is kind of my pet topic.

I think you mean having discussions about how other people should have discussions.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 275

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:17:27 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Yes the religious mission is to spew hate, cause terror, and make people very upset and offend them.

Sad for this church lady to say, there are times it does seem like that:

-- The Inquisition
-- Pogroms
-- Hindu-Muslim clashes in the Subcontinent
-- The Salem witch-hunt.

You get the idea.

On a smaller scale, I learned yesterday that a gay friend's dad (a "Christian" pastor) boycotted the son's legal same-sex wedding. A handful of ancient, probably misconstrued, patriarchal text snippets mattered more to him than the life and love of his own flesh and blood.

The idea that I am getting is you seem to think people are still doing and thinking the same things they did hundreds of years ago. I doubt there are many groups that go back in history that don't have examples of bad people. Should we judge everyone today by the actions of people who are long gone.

Your friends dad is an asshole. Unfortunately they are out there. I had a friend who had to leave home because his dad threatened to beat him straight. His dad wasn't religious, in fact his views on religion mirror many of those on these boards. He thought the bible thumpers (his words) were a bunch of idiots who wanted to guilt him into not enjoying the good things in life, he also thought the idea of two men having sex made him sick and his son wasn't going to be one of them but that had nothing to do with god. Hate is wrong no matter what excuse you use to justify it.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 276

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:22:43 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

Yes, I can. I did. I do! :) To perceive such as you do, that there is some sort of parallel going on between religion and human nature (meaning, that both have "good sides"), you have to think that there is something, anything, good about religion. I don't. If anything, I view religion as a sort of criminal lifestyle that reeks havoc on the rest of us and must be monitored and limited in its ability to harm the lives of others.

Kirata, I see no meeting of the minds here. We fundamentally experience the world, morality and goodness in not only different ways, but in opposing ways.

Religions are a "how to" on harming people who are different from their self-described norm. It's not that it taps into the inherent badness in people, it's that it rewards hate and interferes with love. Religion = Evil. Religious people may vary, but as I said, to be not evil, those religious people have to reject the religion and use conscience as their guide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I'll grant there are textual passages in the canons of our Western monotheisms that can readily be turned, and have been, to unfortunate purposes. But other factors influence whether or not they will be. Religion has also inspired much love and selfless giving.

Here, you attribute goodness to the influence of religion, where I assign credit to that natural goodness inherent in all healthy humans.

If you're going to claim that religion inspires conflict and violence, assigning the blame to religion instead of to the darker side of human nature, you can't just turn around and deny in the same breath that religion inspires love and selfless giving too, assigning credit for that to our "natural goodness".

K.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 277

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:29:59 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV

Yes, I can.

Not without a rabbit and a top hat.

K.

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 278

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/14/2014 7:49:24 PM

BecomingV

Posts: 916
Joined: 11/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
It appears that you think I equate intelligence with formal education and degrees.

I wasn't making an inference about how you think, I was making a reference to what you said.

You strongly agreed that "credentials" were fair game. I'm pointing out that I don't see the difference in terms of "fair game" between asking about formal education and informal education.

I'd consider contesting either the formal or informal education of someone to be personal and am wondering how you differentiate the two?

Here's the quote you refer to:

I strongly agree that it is fair game to ask someone who engages in debate to back up their position with resources, credentials or here... links to authoritative facts.

I bolded the part that pertains to debate in general and to CM communication. ^^^ I think I can clarify.

"Someone who engages in debate" means anyone, anywhere. Debate is a formal, regimented style of communication with a lot of rules which support findings of fact and as such, personal opinion is not of any worth at all.

How is anyone on message boards going to prove their credentials - most use fake names/handles.

"or here..." meaning, here on CM threads, "links to authoritative facts." Posters can share their resources - the news article, the research study, the policy, the law, the song lyrics, whatever... they based their opinion on. When they can't do that, or won't, then I give their opinion the weight it deserves. Understand, I do post links when I debate a tangible point.

This thread is about religious stuff, so there's only history to turn to. The horrors committed in religion's name made it into the history books, and currently, are being written about in newspapers and prosecuted in court rooms and documented in statistical reports from emergency rooms, mental wards and morgues.

So, if I ask, "On what is your opinion based?", the poster should have an answer. An easy one.

Do you see how that is a whole different conversation than one in which someone is attacked? I do.

There comes a time when all has been said. Some "get it," and some will "get it later," and some "will never get it." The ones who get it vary - some agree, some disagree. Kay sa ra sa ra

< Message edited by BecomingV -- 5/14/2014 7:59:14 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 279

RE: What do the atheists get right? - 5/15/2014 1:37:05 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
The less intelligent, lacking mental options, go to the baser stuff - and sink into personal attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BecomingV
Where did I attack anyone personally? The quote you chose is generic, general and really, a common view.

So if I put you in a group, let's say people who's screen names start with B and then also then also personally attack everyone near you let's say people who's screen names starts with B are poopy pants, it stops being a personal attack?

(in reply to BecomingV)

Post #: 280

Page: << < prev 12 13 [14] 15 16 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What do the atheists get right?

Page: << < prev 12 13 [14] 15 16 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.125