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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 2:05:44 PM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I was addressing only your comment implying the harmlessness of 9 volt batteries and pointing out that, with the right equipment, a 7.5 volt battery can defibrillate your heart.

I am a gaffer in the film industry, and worked for years as an electrician. I know plenty about the kind of electricity that can kill you in that context too. But I know nothing about electronics and the workings of capacitors, and even less about the mechanism of the SA and AV nodes of the heart... Therefore I err on the side of safety. Others can do as they see fit.


So, all that about finding out information on the topic for yourself, getting the truth, not just saying the mantra... All that just didn't resonate with you at all huh. And once again, its not the volts, its the amps


I am aware it's not the voltage alone and the amperage matters... I was, again, responding to your original comment about voltage and batteries.

And yes... Research and the pursuit of knowledge and information does resonate with me. However, the opinions of anonymous forum posters is, at best, the begining of the journey toward knowledge, not - at least for me - the end of it.



Then you must acknowledge that in order to correctly respond to said comment about batteries, it is not the voltage, it is the amps that kill. Simply to say a 7.5 Difb can kill is not correct, since it is the amps of the device, not the voltage in fact killing, correct? As for me being anonymous, that is your call on the validity of information presented


Your original comment implied that it was impossible for any device powered by a 9 volt battery to have an impact on the heart. I was merely pointing out that that was incorrect.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/12/2014 2:07:08 PM >


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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 2:11:15 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I was addressing only your comment implying the harmlessness of 9 volt batteries and pointing out that, with the right equipment, a 7.5 volt battery can defibrillate your heart.

I am a gaffer in the film industry, and worked for years as an electrician. I know plenty about the kind of electricity that can kill you in that context too. But I know nothing about electronics and the workings of capacitors, and even less about the mechanism of the SA and AV nodes of the heart... Therefore I err on the side of safety. Others can do as they see fit.


So, all that about finding out information on the topic for yourself, getting the truth, not just saying the mantra... All that just didn't resonate with you at all huh. And once again, its not the volts, its the amps


I am aware it's not the voltage alone and the amperage matters... I was, again, responding to your original comment about voltage and batteries.

And yes... Research and the pursuit of knowledge and information does resonate with me. However, the opinions of anonymous forum posters is, at best, the begining of the journey toward knowledge, not - at least for me - the end of it.



Then you must acknowledge that in order to correctly respond to said comment about batteries, it is not the voltage, it is the amps that kill. Simply to say a 7.5 Difb can kill is not correct, since it is the amps of the device, not the voltage in fact killing, correct? As for me being anonymous, that is your call on the validity of information presented


Your original comment implied that it was impossible for any device powered by a 9 volt battery to have an impact on the heart. I was merely pointing out that that was incorrect.


Oh, wait a minute now, are you saying the battery used in a Defibrillator is actually in the same class as a 9 volt?

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 2:23:31 PM   
Bhruic


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Zzzzzzzzzzzz

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 2:27:05 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Zzzzzzzzzzzz


Yeah, you do know that comparing a 7.5 defib battery to a 9 volt is like comparing a bicycle to a Lamborghini. You awake yet?

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 6:33:09 PM   
Bhruic


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In the interest of safety based in response to the OP, here is some information I have found... do with it what you will.

From the site:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html

A common phrase heard in reference to electrical safety goes something like this: "It's not voltage that kills, its current!" While there is an element of truth to this, there's more to understand about shock hazard than this simple adage. If voltage presented no danger, no one would ever print and display signs saying: DANGER -- HIGH VOLTAGE!

The principle that "current kills" is essentially correct. It is electric current that burns tissue, freezes muscles, and fibrillates hearts. However, electric current doesn't just occur on its own: there must be voltage available to motivate electrons to flow through a victim. A person's body also presents resistance to current, which must be taken into account.


(me) Many commercially available racquet zappers that use only 2 double A batteries can deliver 2300 volts.

http://nathanthegreat.squidoo.com/best-tennis-racket-bug-zappers

Continuing on from the first site:

The amount of current through a body is equal to the amount of voltage applied between two points on that body, divided by the electrical resistance offered by the body between those two points. Obviously, the more voltage available to cause electrons to flow, the easier they will flow through any given amount of resistance. Hence, the danger of high voltage: high voltage means potential for large amounts of current through your body, which will injure or kill you. Conversely, the more resistance a body offers to current, the slower electrons will flow for any given amount of voltage. Just how much voltage is dangerous depends on how much total resistance is in the circuit to oppose the flow of electrons.

But how much current is harmful? The answer to that question also depends on several factors. Individual body chemistry has a significant impact on how electric current affects an individual. Some people are highly sensitive to current, experiencing involuntary muscle contraction with shocks from static electricity. Others can draw large sparks from discharging static electricity and hardly feel it, much less experience a muscle spasm. Despite these differences, approximate guidelines have been developed through tests which indicate very little current being necessary to manifest harmful effects.


(me) then there is a chart on the felt effects of various milliamp ratings that is worth looking at, followed by:


Keep in mind that these figures are only approximate, as individuals with different body chemistry may react differently. It has been suggested that an across-the-chest current of only 17 milliamps AC is enough to induce fibrillation in a human subject under certain conditions. Most of our data regarding induced fibrillation comes from animal testing. Obviously, it is not practical to perform tests of induced ventricular fibrillation on human subjects, so the available data is sketchy.

Remember, it has been suggested a current of only 17 milliamps may induce ventricular (heart) fibrillation. With a hand-to-hand resistance of 1000 Ω, it would only take 17 volts to create this dangerous condition.

Seventeen volts is not very much as far as electrical systems are concerned. Granted, this is a "worst-case" scenario with 60 Hz AC voltage and excellent bodily conductivity, but it does stand to show how little voltage may present a serious threat under certain conditions.


(me) Now... There are definitely different issues between AC and DC current - although the above mentioned chart shows only 500 milliamps of DC current are required to fibrillate a human heart - and there are issues of conditions of resistance and individual peoples susceptibility.

It's enough to suggest to me that the matter is not cut and dried, and people should use their own common sense when using electrical toys in the chest area. If you are young and healthy, and have no history of cardiac problems or sensitivity, you may well be able to play with zappers till the cows come home... but do not simply trust that anything you buy must be safe, or they wouldn't sell it. Manufacturers are not legally accountable when their product is used in an manner that was clearly not intended. If you put a bug zapper on your eye ball, it is going to do damage, and the manufacturer will not be legally accountable.

Cheers


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/12/2014 6:42:40 PM >


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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 6:59:25 PM   
epiphiny43


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Almost all of the site quotes need to be heavily qualified or are Wrong.
Electric current doesn't slow down with more resistance, it flows less current. Which is a substantial difference making me highly suspect about anything else said. Missing is that resistance is both a function of the material and it's cross section. Thin wires are higher resistance than cables. The human body typically offers multiple conductive tracks and most currents use all available. For cross-chest current that isn't strong enough to ionize fluids and make a lower resistance single path (Lightning or high tension lines) the current tends to follow surface muscle and structure, passing around the complicated lung and heart.
It IS understood JUST what it takes to fibrillate a heart, which is why the volts and amps in pacemakers are always about the same from brand to brand, IIRC, 70-100 milliamps. Not to the outer chest wall but TO A WIRE DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE NERVE NEXUS THAT CONTROLS HEART CONTRACTIONS AND RHYTHM. Which is a distinction so many can't grasp. TENS units typically are in this range of current, thus the strong suggestion Not to hook one to a pace maker wire, and why so many years of TENS and milions of uses above the waist yearly have a ZERO known 'untoward event' record.
The other huge criticism of the quoted site is it assumes a large current potential behind the contacts. Bug zappers, TENS units, sexual electrical toys and such have very limited power sources, usually small batteries. For sensual intensity low current is transformed to much higher voltage, with no change in the amps the battery or power source is capable of. Completely unlike grabbing a grounded live wire on house mains or higher current distribution system while unfortunately grounded. Without being grounded or touching opposingly polarized parts of the circuit, nothing happens, something all electricians and lineman well know and use to speed work by not shutting down whole systems when unnecessary. Notice how most cherry pickers are made with baskets that don't conduct electricity?
Small batteries can deliver dangerous electrical 'events', but only with very carefully designed capacitors which store significant amounts of current from the battery over time than release it through a sophisticated circuit as a single high voltage and amperage pulse. Not your typical flyswatter or sexual play toy.

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 7:09:16 PM   
Bhruic


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Thanks for the additional information... you seem to have a solid knowledge base, but I'm not really qualified to tell.

As I said... people can do with information what they wish, and I encourage them to research themselves and not simply trust what they are told.

I'm as interested in an authoritative answer as the next person, but as a guy with a metal stent in his heart, I'm inclined to just avoid the issue entirely and not use electrical toys on my chest.

Maybe it is unnecessary, but no one ever got their ass bit by being careful.

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 7:12:56 PM   
Darkfeather


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Ok, obviously, that article was written by an "electrical engineer". There is a big difference between theoretical and practical application... Lets go through this step by step shall we? First of all everyone knows when you touch an electrical source, what happens? Does the charge go across your arm towards your heart? Or does it go down your arm, torso, leg, then to ground? Simple physics, my friend. Electricity always goes to ground. Where is the heart? In the middle of your chest. Where is the ground? Under your feet. Opposite direction. Practical versus theoretical. Now, as I said before, I have actually touched hot wires before. Not on purpose mind you, because that shit hurts. But did the current travel up my arm and stop my heart? No. It traveled down my arm, down my leg, and to ground. Period, end of lesson.

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RE: electric bug zappers - 5/12/2014 7:30:47 PM   
Bhruic


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From: Toronto, Canada
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Here is a quote (albeit from Wikipedia) that seems to support what you are saying... although it may be old as I have seen zappers that deliver significantly more than 1000 volts, and the swatter I have practically incinerates flies. I have yet to find a manufacturer that gives detailed specs on the output of their product, but would defiantly be interested should anyone find such info.

from Wikipedia:

Most electric flyswatters conform to electrical safety standards for humans:

A limit on the charge stored in the capacitor. A discharge of less than 45 µC is considered safe, even in the unlikely scenario that the current from a flyswatter would be flowing from one arm to the other arm, partly through the heart.[10] This means that the capacitor of a 1000 V flyswatter should be less than 45 nF. Due to this precaution for humans, the initial shock is usually inadequate to kill flies, but will stun them for long enough that they can be disposed of.

A limit on the current after the initial discharge. The maximal continuous current of most flyswatters is less than 5 mA. This current is safe, even when flowing from one arm to the other arm of a human.


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 5/12/2014 7:32:39 PM >


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