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RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 11:07:12 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It takes fucking gall for someone to come on here and claim that black-American culture has different values and aspirations than white-American culture.

Nobody is talking about all blacks. That there exists a violent and dysfunctional sub-culture within our inner-cities is painfully in evidence, even to many blacks themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't believe a community can lift itself up by its own bootstraps out of poverty, drug abuse, and ignorance. Intervention is required.

The determinants of violent crime are economic and cultural. But the world is full of dirt poor people who aren't running around killing each other. It is the culture that determines how a population will respond to its economic travail.

K.

In your first paragraph you say it is not all blacks who are dysfunctional. In your second paragraph you say it is the culture that determines how a population will respond. You simply can't have it both ways.

And bullshit on your claim that the world is full of dirt poor people who aren't running around killing each other. Yemen, Afghanistan, Central Republic of the Congo (whatever), Sudan, and Libya are but a few places where insurrections are in place.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 321

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 11:11:25 AM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
It takes fucking gall for someone to come on here and claim ...

that whites are evil racist bastards who are completely responsible for the plight of
the black community.

We agree.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forgetting the struggles of the abolotionists. The hundreds of thousands of lives spent in the civil war.

And the trillions of dollars spent in the war on poverty and racial set asides.

White people are the fruit of the devil. Louis Farrakheen has said so.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 322

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 12:05:54 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Nobody is talking about all blacks. That there exists a violent and dysfunctional sub-culture within our inner-cities is painfully in evidence, even to many blacks themselves.

The determinants of violent crime are economic and cultural. But the world is full of dirt poor people who aren't running around killing each other. It is the culture that determines how a population will respond to its economic travail.

In your first paragraph you say it is not all blacks who are dysfunctional. In your second paragraph you say it is the culture that determines how a population will respond. You simply can't have it both ways.

Ah, well then, allow me to spell it out for you as if unto a child. Not all blacks live in our inner-cities (stop me if I'm getting ahead of you) or participate in the violent and dysfunctional sub-culture that exists there. Were you able to follow that?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And bullshit on your claim that the world is full of dirt poor people who aren't running around killing each other. Yemen, Afghanistan, Central Republic of the Congo (whatever), Sudan, and Libya are but a few places where insurrections are in place.

Oh please. The conflicts in those areas have precisely what to do with poverty? And that's without even mentioning the fact that not even a single one of them ranks among the world's poorest countries (see here). Is this going to be your game?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/9/2014 12:27:24 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 323

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 12:18:25 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

What I thought you meant was

Bend over, bozo. What you "thought" I meant, and claimed I meant, was that "blacks and blacks ALONE are responsible for the problems that afflict their communities." See here if you forget. Nice bit of quote trimming there, too. But hey, why let a little misrepresentation stand in the way? After all, it's just good family fun.

K.

Actually I, not thompson x, made the claim that you asserted "blacks and blacks alone are responsible for the problems that afflict their communities." in my post #262 on page 14. Please note that my original text didn't capitalise 'alone'* so not only have you wrongly attributed the claim, you also altered it without advising the reader that you have altered the original. And, amazingly, you accuse others of "misrepresentation" .......

The post of yours that I was responding to reads in full:
"Put a sock in it, tweakabelle. Nobody has demonstrated more disrespect for the welfare of the black community than other blacks themselves. It ain't white folks driving into our inner cities at night to paint gang signs on buildings, shoot the place up, and punch a few heads of kids who are trying to do well in school." (post #260)

In your post, you are clearly pointing the finger of blame at "blacks" and no one else. You specifically absolve "whites" of blame. You exclude all other racial groups from blame - " Nobody has demonstrated more disrespect for the welfare of the black community than other blacks themselves." The only available conclusion is that you are blaming all blacks, as you declined to qualify "blacks" in any way shape or form, and no one else. This conclusion could have been easily avoided by simply qualifying "blacks" in some way eg "some blacks ...." but you declined to do so.

The post, and the thinking that inspired it, are racist to their cores. All blacks are judged solely on the basis of behaviour by black gangbangers. An entire racial group is judged on the basis of alleged behaviour of its worst members. Everyone else is excluded. A parallel would be judging all whites on the basis of Ku Klux Klan behaviour. Textbook racism.

If you want to post such sentiments, that's your right and your problem (and I mean problem). But please defend it on the basis of what it is - textbook classic racism, nothing more, nothing less. It's not " just good family fun", It's hate speech, and to my mind, hate and hate speech are always putrid ugly and sick.

* I have bolded 'alone' so that the alteration you made is clearer

No in that post he was clearly saying Nobody has demonstrated more disrespect for the welfare of the black community than other blacks themselves. Now as I pointed out before they can't demonstrate more if someone else isn't demonstrating less. But it was nice that you jumped in and admitted that it was you that misinterpreted what he said and not joether.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 324

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 1:05:36 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vfluc.txt

Blacks - that comprise 11% of the population commit 46% of the murders, 35% of rapists. 40$ of felony assaults.

Overall blacks comprised 55% of violent felons.

You mean of the people prosecuted for those crimes blacks comprise those percentages. There is a difference.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 325

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 1:16:38 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I think it is economics more than racism when it comes to convictions today… They did commit the crimes there is no denying that…but on average cannot afford the quality of legal representation that whites… who commit the same crimes…can afford.

But again indirectly this economic situation is a result of past racism. Even if African Americans on average are not experiencing as much racism today they are starting in life at an economic disadvantage.

I believe even this gap is closing but it is not there yet… and the economic climate today is making it even more difficult.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/9/2014 1:17:43 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 326

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 1:34:57 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is economics more than racism when it comes to convictions today… They did commit the crimes there is no denying that…but on average cannot afford the quality of legal representation that whites… who commit the same crimes…can afford.

No, they did not always commit the crimes and sometimes the "crimes" are things that shouldn't even be prosecuted.

Take 2 examples. Simple pot possession. White kid gets caught with a dime bag and the cops simply take it, happened to me a couple of times. Black kid gets caught with the same dime bag and he's going to jail and depending on the DA he might even get a distribution charge.

2 white guys fight outside a bar, nothing worse than a broken nose, cops break up the fight, both guys get taken in to sleep it off and get misdemeanor charges (I've seen it happen). 2 black guys fight outside a bar, again nothing worse than a broken nose, cops take the instigator in and charge him with felony assault and battery (saw it happen at the old Checkerboard, I got called as a witness). The guy got a year in jail because he got drunk and got in a fight.

Same "crimes," vastly different outcomes.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 327

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 1:50:13 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Ah, well then, allow me to spell it out for you as if unto a child. Not all blacks live in our inner-cities (stop me if I'm getting ahead of you) or participate in the violent and dysfunctional sub-culture that exists there. Were you able to follow that?

Trying to understand your obtuse ramblings. So, now there is a 'not all black culture' in inner cities that is prone to violence? What exactly is that 'not-all black culture?' Do you mean there are criminals where unemployment rates among young men are north of 50%. What does that have to do with race? These young men may have limited literacy but they aint stupid. In any event, this scape-goating of poor street kids is nothing new and is not special to black children.

Moreover, apprehensiveness spreads to innocent people who look like street criminals to the better-off, especially poor black young males probably the major targets of imagined threats in America today(5)especially when they resort to "oppositional" lifestyle signifiers: gangsta rap, distinctive dress codes, and general adolescent swagger. These are essentially cultural threats, not so much an attack on adults as youth culture's rather conventional attempt to keep adults at a distance. Again, there are historical parallels: At the turn of the century, innocent immigrants from groups with high arrest rates for the street crimes of the day, the ancestors, incidentally, of today's "white ethnics" were also viewed as cultural safety threats.

Fears of street crime must be understood as particular cases of more general class and race fears, which go far beyond issues of safety. Yet since the perception of undeservingness depends in part on violence, effective crime reduction would undoubtedly help to reduce the political scapegoating of the poor, improving their lives both directly and indirectly. If the nation is ever to take effective action against poverty neither the 1960s' federal "Skirmish on Poverty," as those of us involved called it, nor today's counterproductive punitive approaches on-poor citizens must consider the poor sufficiently deserving to merit job-centered policies. But first, America must end the terrible scarcity of jobs open to low-income people.

SOURCE

quote:

Oh please. The conflicts in those areas have precisely what to do with poverty? And that's without even mentioning the fact that not even a single one of them ranks among the world's poorest countries (see here). Is this going to be your game?

Oh please, yourself. Are you suggesting that there is something special about the culture of criminals in America's cities that is absent from conflict among the world's poor? (other than they have more ready access to guns) Maybe I got the countries wrong (although I don't think so), but . . . .

Poverty and political, social, and economic inequalities between groups predispose to conflict; policies to tackle them will reduce this risk

Eight out of 10 of the world's poorest countries are suffering, or have recently suffered, from large scale violent conflict. Wars in developing countries have heavy human, economic, and social costs and are a major cause of poverty and underdevelopment. The extra infant deaths caused by the war in Cambodia, for example, were estimated to be 3% of the country's 1990 population.1 Most current conflicts, such as in the Sudan or the Congo, are within states, although there is often considerable outside intervention, as in Afghanistan. In the past 30 years Africa has been especially badly affected by war (see fig fig11).

SOURCE

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/9/2014 2:07:00 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 328

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 2:09:25 PM

KYsissy

Posts: 781
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline

Does racism exist? Hell yeah.

But personally I have seen the charge of racism thrown out undeservedly far more often than when it is deserved.

I worked in a commercial hardware store. A new hire in plumbing on the job a whole week was stacking boxes in the warehouse area. He said "they are only making me do this cuz Im black." I said "Terry, 120 unit high rise needs a new Bell and Gosset circulating pump, what size should you give them?"
He of course didn't know, neither did I. I told him you are doing this because you are new and.don't know anythng yet.

I think he lasted 2 months. This was in a place many called UN hardware. You pick a nationality, they probably worked there. Israeli. Russian, nigerian, cameroonian, irish, Indians, Pakistanis, Iraqis, Mexicans . . . .

The racism charge was ridiculous.

On a side note, there was an old lady cashier. S L O W as mollases. She was a terrible cashier and not much good for anything in that store. But she spoke 8 languages fluently. She was priceless with that one skill as the clientel was as diverse as the employees.

< Message edited by KYsissy -- 5/9/2014 2:11:14 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 329

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 2:55:02 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Ah, well then, allow me to spell it out for you as if unto a child. Not all blacks live in our inner-cities (stop me if I'm getting ahead of you) or participate in the violent and dysfunctional sub-culture that exists there. Were you able to follow that?

So, now there is a 'not all black culture' in inner cities that is prone to violence?

Another reading comprehension failure joins the fray. I'll pass on that game.

Your first reference concludes that "violent crime will not decline until enough Americans realize that punitive measures have not worked" and are willing to give "the poor a chance at decent full-time jobs," all in all a fluffy bit of nonsense that totally ignores the cultural problem: crime earns status in the inner-city, and kids who want to get ahead by working hard in school are ridiculed and bullied.

As for your second reference, it's first summary points reads, "Wars are a major cause of poverty, underdevelopment, and ill health in poor countries," and it goes on from there to discuss the factors that predispose to war.

Four economic hypotheses have been put forward to explain intra-state wars, based on factors related to group motivation, private motivation, failure of the social contract, and environmental degradation.

You do realize that we are not talking about wars, right? We're talking about our inner-cities. In America, not Africa, and in the context of America's history of race relations. Fortunately, however, we know a good deal about the problem...

the racial gap in homicide offending cannot be explained entirely by the stark differences in poverty, unemployment, income inequality, and female headship currently observed in black and white communities...

One potential explanation suggests that the extreme and long-term social and economic disadvantage experienced by many urban blacks has resulted in cultural and normative adaptations that have removed important social constraints on violence (Anderson, 1994; Rose and McClain, 1990). While this position maintains the primacy of structural factors (e.g., socioeconomic deprivation) in determining aggregate rates of homicide, it also emphasizes the importance of crime-tolerant cultural responses that arise when deprivation is concentrated, extreme, and long term (Anderson, 1994; Rose and McClain, 1990).

This position is espoused in recent work by Sampson and Wilson (1995), who suggest that "in structurally disorganized slum communities it appears that a system of values emerges in which crime, disorder, and drug use are less than fervently condemned and hence expected as a part of everyday life"

Source

Subsequent research has supported the validity of the concentration hypothesis and the cultural deterioration that accompanies it (see here) and found that the racial differences in homicide rates largely disappear when that factor is controlled for.

However, once such a culture is in place it is difficult to dislodge. And I see little improvement in race relations resulting from whites trying to tell the residents of our inner-cities that their culture is dysfunctional. Fortunately, however, many have figured that out, some a long time ago, and it is they who must take the lead in their communities. I can think of nothing more insulting to any blacks with pride than this infernal notion that they need the help and guidance of white folk.

They are not stupid. They are not helpless. They are not children.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/9/2014 3:55:05 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 330

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 2:59:44 PM

chloryformME

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/27/2011
Status: offline

if a black man says the exact same thing and it is recorded....it is not even a story............this is a blatant far reaching hope for the libs.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 331

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:02:56 PM

Ladytisha

Posts: 112
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline

Bullshit....

(in reply to chloryformME)

Post #: 332

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:06:26 PM

chloryformME

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/27/2011
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bullshit your ass.....Michael Jordan is caught on the phone calling the white player or players on his roster cracker or whatever and is demeaning....the same people who are jumping for joy over Donald would be claiming racism, saying the league is out to get MJ....same in the nfl, NHL, or whatever. Obama does it continuously.

(in reply to Ladytisha)

Post #: 333

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:17:41 PM

Ladytisha

Posts: 112
Joined: 6/3/2013
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So your telling me nothing has been done when an African American says something racist, once again bullshit. I can see your hatred for blacks, since you seem to think we get away with thing, How long have you been black? Have you anything to prove blacks get away with being racist? I'll wait.....

(in reply to chloryformME)

Post #: 334

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:20:54 PM

chloryformME

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/27/2011
Status: offline

they do get away with whatever from media perspective...jeremiah wright? The N. word, Cracker, uncle tom, black power,ect...ect...ect....if its reversed the media screams racism.
that is not hatred, that is just fact and you just prove my point. your first defense is use of the word racism.

< Message edited by chloryformME -- 5/9/2014 3:22:14 PM >

(in reply to Ladytisha)

Post #: 335

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:25:15 PM

Ladytisha

Posts: 112
Joined: 6/3/2013
Status: offline

"They" who is they? So he said the N word and other racial slurs so I do recall him being in the news, about the racist slurs my point is because some throw racist slurs out, all blacks are not like that. Dam sure don't get away with anything.

(in reply to chloryformME)

Post #: 336

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:30:07 PM

chloryformME

Posts: 6
Joined: 6/27/2011
Status: offline

any public figure.....the poster child the black power Olympians......media overlooked ignored jeremiah wright, The debate about the N word be derogatory is only about white people....the trial down in florida was purely a racial witch hunt from the very top.....and what did they say when they didn't get the verdict....racism.....The media ignores or gives pass to the community and their racism.
and no it isn't every black person....their are outsanding black people....who are doing everything they can to help...and guess they get treated like white people.....

(in reply to Ladytisha)

Post #: 337

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 3:56:04 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

..

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 338

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 4:09:22 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chloryformME

bullshit your ass.....Michael Jordan is caught on the phone calling the white player or players on his roster cracker or whatever and is demeaning....the same people who are jumping for joy over Donald would be claiming racism, saying the league is out to get MJ....same in the nfl, NHL, or whatever. Obama does it continuously.

It's funny. I've followed the President's career since he was first running for state senator. I've never heard him make an accusation that someone was a racist, ever. Despite the fact that many of the attacks on him were blatantly racial.

BTW you might not appear to be such a fool and a bigot if you'd learn to spell and use at least grade school grammar.

(in reply to chloryformME)

Post #: 339

RE: Liberal delusions on racism - 5/9/2014 5:12:35 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is economics more than racism when it comes to convictions today… They did commit the crimes there is no denying that…but on average cannot afford the quality of legal representation that whites… who commit the same crimes…can afford.

But again indirectly this economic situation is a result of past racism. Even if African Americans on average are not experiencing as much racism today they are starting in life at an economic disadvantage.

I believe even this gap is closing but it is not there yet… and the economic climate today is making it even more difficult.

Butch

I think your right about that. And while I think not being able to afford legal help is a part of it, I think that growing up in the atmosphere that surrounds the inner city plays a big part to. I have a friend who is the last house standing on her side of the block. The rest are broken shells. The lawns aren't mowed and piles of garbage accumulate in front of the abandoned homes. How is a child supposed to grow up and have any hope for a future when they are surrounded by depression and crime.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 340

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