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Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 9:56:12 PM   
Crouchingtiger77


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Status: offline 		The Sudetenland was given by Chamberlain to Hitler and Germany in the belief that this would avert a new
world war.

But what Chamberlain did not know was that there was a Conspiracy to have Hitler killed when he did go in to take the Sudetenland.

But, after, Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler, this broke up the conspiracy.

So, was Chamberlain inadvertently responsible for World War II?

I would say yes because I believe the Germans were not yet ready to take on Europe as they did. This pact with Chamberlain gave them time and if Chamberlain along with France had stood up to Hitler it would have set him back on his heels.

And, this whether there had been a conspiracy to kill Hitler or not, Chamberlain because of his gutless and spineless persona was responsible for permitting Hitler to do what he did.
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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 10:16:55 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Can I ask a question for clarification? Could you explain the phrase, "France had stood up" for me? Is it a typo? Is it a neo-koan along the lines of, "what would a chair look like, if our knees bent the other way?" I can't make heads or tails of the concept.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 10:27:00 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		FR

Hitler had proven adept at avoiding assassins and managing his internal politics so the coup may well have failed.

While Germany was not ready for war neither were France and England.

Chamberlain may or may not have caused WWII. It is a question that we simply cannot answer. We do know that Chamberlain's appeasement strategy was a failure that did not satisfy Hitler and did not end his territorial ambitions.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 10:39:47 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

Hitler had proven adept at avoiding assassins and managing his internal politics so the coup may well have failed.

While Germany was not ready for war neither were France and England.

Chamberlain may or may not have caused WWII. It is a question that we simply cannot answer. We do know that Chamberlain's appeasement strategy was a failure that did not satisfy Hitler and did not end his territorial ambitions.

The combination of his unshakable believe that you can reason with the unreasonable, and trust the untrustworthy, combined with with following disarmament treaties that were only followed by one side.
made the war unavoidable. It is not fair to blame it all on Chamberlain, he represented the thought of British society at the time. You are right about the French, their spine had been amputated at Verdun
in 1916.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 10:43:00 PM   
RottenJohnny


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Two things that caused WWII...

1. Treaty of Versailles
2. Hitler

Three things that doomed Germany...

1. No long range aircraft.
2. The Eastern Front.
3. Hitler

I don't believe any of that had anything to do with Chamberlain.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/7/2014 10:45:16 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Can I ask a question for clarification? Could you explain the phrase, "France had stood up" for me?



This only happens when preparing to walk out of security council meetings or when we ask if we can fly through their airspace.







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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 1:21:40 AM   
DaNewAgeViking


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Status: offline 		Bottom line: Germany was pathetically weak in the early 30s. When Hitler reoccupied the Rhineland, he did it with three infantry battalions. When it came time for the Czechs, their defenses in the Sudatenland would have given the Germans a miserable time at least. If the British and French had attacked Germany from the west, there was nothing to stop them. If France and Britain had 'stood up' (honored their treaties and come to the aid of an ally) it would have been quick and easy. By knuckling under to Hitler, Chamberlain undermined France and abandoned a capable ally to the east - the Czechs. So, yes, his intellectual conceit caused WW2 - or at least changed it from a police action into a catastrophe.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 5:56:56 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Three things that doomed Germany...

1. No long range aircraft.
2. The Eastern Front.
3. Hitler

I don't believe any of that had anything to do with Chamberlain.

Hitler was most of it. He clearly made a huge blunder going to war with the Soviets while Britain remained standing.

There were some other problems endemic to the German war effort that often go unremarked.

1) The Germans had a very small system for training pilots. It simply could not keep up with the losses sustained and the Luftwaffe eventually, after 1942, had more planes than pilots.
2) The Germans didn't all know how to drive cars. This seems bizarre but it is true. They had to have a school for truck drivers and they still relied on horse and mule teams to move a lot of their equipment. Moving the feed and water for the animals put a huge strain on the logistics of the German army. 

As to long range aircraft, I'm not really sure what you mean. they had the Me 110 long range fighter and the He 111 medium bomber that both had respectable ranges for aircraft of the era,.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 6:46:43 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

FR

Two things that caused WWII...

1. Treaty of Versailles
2. Hitler

Three things that doomed Germany...

1. No long range aircraft.
2. The Eastern Front.
3. Hitler

I don't believe any of that had anything to do with Chamberlain.



I would argue that what doomed Hitler was

a). The coldest winter in 50 years.
b). Japan being provoked into declaring war on the US. Had the japanese merely focussed on china and russia it would have delayed US entry in to the war for at least another year. Again. Russia out of the war, would the US have had the stomach to fight?
c). No long range aircraft. Germany halted the development of the jet, and threw the Luftwaffe into a poor fight with the RAF. Germany could have just sat, consolidated its gains, and ramped up production. Instead it sought an unwinnable war.

Without that, the Germans probably would have knocked Russia out of the war.

Then its a different ball of wax.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 7:37:41 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


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quote:

Hitler had proven adept at avoiding assassins and managing his internal politics so the coup may well have failed.

While Germany was not ready for war neither were France and England.

In the case of the second assassination attempt, yes, Hitler was lucky.

But the first attempt was never carried out because of Chamberlain's spineless and gutless appeasement. Had he not given Hitler what he wanted, then those who had planned to have taken Hitler out woud have done so.

At that time, in 1938, it would have thrown Germany into chaos in a political sense. There was no one singular head who could have taken over with the magnetism that Hitler managed to create over the German people.

As to France and Britian, they had made promises to those whom Hitler wanted to take over. Had France and Britain had just made a move showing force Hitler would have backed off or been then forced before he was ready to take on both countries.

I do say it was Chamberlain, his gutless, spineless personna which enabled Hitler to do what he did.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 7:41:42 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77

The Sudetenland was given by Chamberlain to Hitler and Germany in the belief that this would avert a new
world war.

But what Chamberlain did not know was that there was a Conspiracy to have Hitler killed when he did go in to take the Sudetenland.

But, after, Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler, this broke up the conspiracy.

So, was Chamberlain inadvertently responsible for World War II?

I would say yes because I believe the Germans were not yet ready to take on Europe as they did. This pact with Chamberlain gave them time and if Chamberlain along with France had stood up to Hitler it would have set him back on his heels.

And, this whether there had been a conspiracy to kill Hitler or not, Chamberlain because of his gutless and spineless persona was responsible for permitting Hitler to do what he did.

That's a pretty contrived chain of cause and effort to propose personal responsibility.

I'm pretty sure Hitler would have found another way to be Hitler without Chamberlain.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 7:46:50 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77

quote:

Hitler had proven adept at avoiding assassins and managing his internal politics so the coup may well have failed.

While Germany was not ready for war neither were France and England.

In the case of the second assassination attempt, yes, Hitler was lucky.

But the first attempt was never carried out because of Chamberlain's spineless and gutless appeasement. Had he not given Hitler what he wanted, then those who had planned to have taken Hitler out woud have done so.

You simply can not know that. It might have succeeded or it might have failed as the later one did for any number of reasons.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 7:49:59 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

That's a pretty contrived chain of cause and effort to propose personal responsibility.

I'm pretty sure Hitler would have found another way to be Hitler without Chamberlain.


First Britain and France had agreement with the people of Czechoslovakia to come to their defense. That did not happen and instead Chamberlain just gave over the Sudetenland to Hitler without lifting an eyebrow.

France had the largest standing army in Europe at the time.

Germany knew they could not handle a conventional warfare and that is
what they would have had if Britain and France and come to stop Hitler after
he took Austria in the way he did.

Yes, I can lay at the feet of Chamberlain the start of World War II in the sense he could have stopped Hitler before he got started.

And, of course he did not know about the officers who had conspired to kill Hitler. If he had, I still think he would have appeased Hitler as that is, was the spineless, gutless leader he was.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:09:17 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline
quote:

You simply can not know that. It might have succeeded or it might have failed as the later one did for any number of reasons.


It was the The Oster Conspiracy

When you read this, yes, it seems a bit simple but this conspiracy never took to walking because Chamberlain, well read the quote I will provide from the article as proof that Chamberlain through his gutless and spineless appeasement enabled Hitler.

quote:

However, Neville Chamberlain, apprehensive of the possibility of war, negotiated interminably with Hitler and eventually conceded to him. This destroyed any chance of the plot's succeeding, since Hitler was then seen in Germany as the "greatest statesman of all times at the moment of his greatest triumph".


And, don't forget, Chamberlain had met with Hitler, and after making his proposal to Hitler watched as Hitler became unglued screaming at Chamberlain.

There was no way any right thinking person after having witnessed first hand Hitler's rantings even considered appeasing the little moustached rat.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:11:12 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Three things that doomed Germany...

1. No long range aircraft.
2. The Eastern Front.
3. Hitler

I don't believe any of that had anything to do with Chamberlain.

Hitler was most of it. He clearly made a huge blunder going to war with the Soviets while Britain remained standing.

There were some other problems endemic to the German war effort that often go unremarked.

1) The Germans had a very small system for training pilots. It simply could not keep up with the losses sustained and the Luftwaffe eventually, after 1942, had more planes than pilots.
2) The Germans didn't all know how to drive cars. This seems bizarre but it is true. They had to have a school for truck drivers and they still relied on horse and mule teams to move a lot of their equipment. Moving the feed and water for the animals put a huge strain on the logistics of the German army. 

As to long range aircraft, I'm not really sure what you mean. they had the Me 110 long range fighter and the He 111 medium bomber that both had respectable ranges for aircraft of the era,.

hey had nothing like the British Lancaster or the B-17, The Me 110 was no match for hurricanes and
spitfires, The HE 111 and JU 88 lacked the payload for serious strategic bombing.
The Luftwaffe was built for close air support not strategic bombing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:37:37 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crouchingtiger77

quote:

That's a pretty contrived chain of cause and effort to propose personal responsibility.

I'm pretty sure Hitler would have found another way to be Hitler without Chamberlain.


First Britain and France had agreement with the people of Czechoslovakia to come to their defense. That did not happen and instead Chamberlain just gave over the Sudetenland to Hitler without lifting an eyebrow.

France had the largest standing army in Europe at the time.

Germany knew they could not handle a conventional warfare and that is
what they would have had if Britain and France and come to stop Hitler after
he took Austria in the way he did.

Yes, I can lay at the feet of Chamberlain the start of World War II in the sense he could have stopped Hitler before he got started.

And, of course he did not know about the officers who had conspired to kill Hitler. If he had, I still think he would have appeased Hitler as that is, was the spineless, gutless leader he was.

Only by the thinnest of contrived threads.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:41:37 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
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quote:

Only by the thinnest of contrived threads

Explain self please

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:45:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I already did.

Enjoy your fantasy.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:48:48 AM   
petskye


Posts: 19
Joined: 2/14/2013
Status: offline 		Chamberlain was in no way responsible for world war 2. You can theorize that if he did things differently things would of happened differently but at the end of the day it will be nothing more than a theory you can never and will never prove. There is only one person you can claim was responsible for world war 2 and that is Hitler himself.

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RE: Was Chamberlain responsible for World War II - 5/8/2014 8:50:36 AM   
Crouchingtiger77


Posts: 174
Joined: 10/21/2012
Status: offline 		a Fantasy based on historic fact that you seem not to be able to accept
1. France and Britain had agreement with Czechoslovakia to come to their defense and did not do so.
2. Chamberlain gave over the Sudetenland to Hitler and that was after having in Hitler's presence witnessed the maniacal rage Hitler could explode into.
3. Chamberlain's appeasement by giving over the Sudetenland also meant the end to the conspiracy to kill Hitler.

There is no fantasy in any of the above. Are you also an appeaser?

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