RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:04:12 PM)
I made it clear I was talking about Maryland law. It is based upon the common law. What we see happening now is a statutory shift in many US states to expand "self-defense" laws to exonerate those who play offense with their weapons. Using a shot gun to shoot a teenager dead in your garage - is a good example of bad judgment, disproportionate force, depraved indifference to human life, reckless use of a dangerous weapon, and the offensive use of a gun. In Maryland, this shooter would be going to jail for unjustified homicide. The shooter here looks cooked by MT law as well.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:23:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I made it clear I was talking about Maryland law. It is based upon the common law. What we see happening now is a statutory shift in many US states to expand "self-defense" laws to exonerate those who play offense with their weapons. Using a shot gun to shoot a teenager dead in your garage - is a good example of bad judgment, disproportionate force, depraved indifference to human life, reckless use of a dangerous weapon, and the offensive use of a gun. In Maryland, this shooter would be going to jail for unjustified homicide. The shooter here looks cooked by MT law as well. I'd have shot this kid.

BamaD -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:34:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I made it clear I was talking about Maryland law. It is based upon the common law. What we see happening now is a statutory shift in many US states to expand "self-defense" laws to exonerate those who play offense with their weapons. Using a shot gun to shoot a teenager dead in your garage - is a good example of bad judgment, disproportionate force, depraved indifference to human life, reckless use of a dangerous weapon, and the offensive use of a gun. In Maryland, this shooter would be going to jail for unjustified homicide. The shooter here looks cooked by MT law as well. As anyone with the gall to protect their home should be.

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I made it clear I was talking about Maryland law. It is based upon the common law. Since there are a 4 (5?) states that don't have a castle doctrine, I'd say your "common law" is a bit like the "common sense" of some dumbass teenager who thought home intrusion was a good way to get free beer... Since this shooting happened someplace other than Maryland, I'll ask you again what, does your post have to do with the subject?

PeonForHer -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:42:57 PM)
quote: As anyone with the gall to protect their home should be. Assuming it was your home's belongings at stake, and not people's lives and wellbeing, would that still be worth taking a life?

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie I'd have shot this kid. I wasn't there, I cannot say that. I'd have set the dogs on him for sure, though.

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:46:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Assuming it was your home's belongings at stake, and not people's lives and wellbeing, would that still be worth taking a life? And you'd know that how, Peon?

BamaD -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:50:12 PM)
FR One of these should work they would indicate he is not fried under Montana law. wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine ktvq.com/news/montana-s-castle-doctrine-explained

PeonForHer -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:54:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Assuming it was your home's belongings at stake, and not people's lives and wellbeing, would that still be worth taking a life? And you'd know that how, Peon? It was a hypothetical question, TH. No direct reference to this particular case.

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 7:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer It was a hypothetical question, TH. That's a coward's cop-out answer, Peon. You want to sling the turd, but not admit where it came from.

Louve00 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:00:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie I'd have shot this kid. I wasn't there, I cannot say that. I'd have set the dogs on him for sure, though. I don't always agree with your solutions or intentions to a given subject. But, in this case, IMO, you would be one of the few gun owners that would be a responsible gun owner. [sm=2cents.gif]

PeonForHer -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:04:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic That's a coward's cop-out answer, Peon. You want to sling the turd, but not admit where it came from. No, it wasn't, TH. Keep the turds inside your own brain, where they're most at home. I asked the question because of the way Bama phrased his comment about protecting his home. In some places and for some people, one's property really is worth killing for. If there's a stronger sense of the value of property than I'm used to, then this would imply a major ethical difference. And I'm sure that nobody here is too cowardly to answer the question, least of all Bama.

BamaD -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:04:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie I'd have shot this kid. I wasn't there, I cannot say that. I'd have set the dogs on him for sure, though. I don't always agree with your solutions or intentions to a given subject. But, in this case, IMO, you would be one of the few gun owners that would be a responsible gun owner. [sm=2cents.gif] If your assessment were accurate the body count would be in the hundreds of thousands.

PeonForHer -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:08:24 PM)
So, Bama, do you feel brave enough to answer the question? Here it is again, coupled with your own comment: quote: quote: As anyone with the gall to protect their home should be. Assuming it was your home's belongings at stake, and not people's lives and wellbeing, would that still be worth taking a life?

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:09:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I don't always agree with your solutions or intentions to a given subject. But, in this case, IMO, you would be one of the few gun owners that would be a responsible gun owner. [sm=2cents.gif] That's nice of you to say, Louve, but do understand that if he had tried to fight off the dogs, instead of just running like hell immediately, I would have blown his goddamn head off.

TheHeretic -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:13:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer No, it wasn't, TH. Yes, Peon, it is. You seen to be having trouble here, so why not just stipulate you are pulling the test out of your ass? How is a person supposed to know the intent of an intruder in their home well enough to risk their lives, or the lives and well being of their family on it? Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Louve00 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:14:53 PM)
I'm not going to pretend I understand where that comment comes from because I didn't read this entire thread and have truthfully never read a rash response from The Heretic. I happen to feel (just my opinion, now), that if a gun owner "feels" that gun justifies him to take the life of someone unarmed that he is taking the cowards way out. What is wrong with fist to fist combat, unless that gun toter is a pussy who is too afraid to find out if taking a life is the end all of it all, or if there is another way to approach an unarmed person, get your definition of retribution, and let the poor slob live. Indeed it is a matter of ethics. Not everyone has the same ethics. So...if you feel it would be just and fair to pull a trigger and take a life of an unarmed person, then do what you must and if a consequence is to be paid, you'll pay it. We wouldn't have problems like these if people used sense and a bit of courage to deal with a scenario. Granted, an unarmed man is not always a threatless man. But you won't know that if you shoot first and find out later.

BamaD -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:18:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer So, Bama, do you feel brave enough to answer the question? Here it is again, coupled with your own comment: quote: quote: As anyone with the gall to protect their home should be. Assuming it was your home's belongings at stake, and not people's lives and wellbeing, would that still be worth taking a life? Your question , at is an oxymoron, if they are breaking into your home they have already expressed a willingness to commit whatever violence they need to to get what they want. If they start a fight when they are unarmed that is their problem. How could you know that all they want is property, do you expect a written statement of their intent? They have also declared, at a minimum that they have the right to anything you have, that you can work to get it but they can have it anytime they want. Might not shoot them, I have an ax, a sword, and a Bowie knife.

PeonForHer -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:20:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer No, it wasn't, TH. Yes, Peon, it is. You seen to be having trouble here, so why not just stipulate you are pulling the test out of your ass? How is a person supposed to know the intent of an intruder in their home well enough to risk their lives, or the lives and well being of their family on it? Better judged by 12 than carried by 6. No TH, it is not. Please stop trying to mind-read, because all you'll do is continue to project your world into my head. And, as I'm sure you've already noticed, it has the obvious advantage of allowing Bama not to answer. As I said, I'm sure he has the courage to do so without your holding his hand and hoping the scary man will go away. It's a simple, straightforward question that goes to the heart of the ethics of when it's OK to use the ultimate form of defence, and when it is not. If Bama, or anyone else, were to say 'Yes, there will be occasions when X or Y item of property is worth taking somebody's life for - then, there is actually the opposite of a trap lying in wait from me. I will think, 'Ah. There's no argument possible here. There's a difference in ethical outlook that I don't know how to cross'. There. Do you now grasp the point of the question, and will you now let Bama answer it? Or indeed others, if they wish to do so?

Louve00 -> RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills Unarmed German Exchange Student (5/17/2014 8:20:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Louve00 I don't always agree with your solutions or intentions to a given subject. But, in this case, IMO, you would be one of the few gun owners that would be a responsible gun owner. [sm=2cents.gif] That's nice of you to say, Louve, but do understand that if he had tried to fight off the dogs, instead of just running like hell immediately, I would have blown his goddamn head off. If he was fearless enough to fight off a dog or dogs, especially if he got passed them, then that, to me, would be determining your life could be in danger. But, you gave the guy a chance to stop, put his hands up and face you as a perpetrator, not an aggressor, you took a stance more people should.

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