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slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 5:18:28 PM

Slavesrelease

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Joined: 10/6/2013
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I have a question that keeps swirling through my mind.... Can a Master just take one as a slave even though the slave may be submissive as well?... (Although personally I can not see where a slave wouldn't be submissive too) Can only one aspect of someone be addressed and thought of, used per se, interactive with, entwined, and the other aspect be left unaddressed? If so does not that person actually lose part of ones self being that only part is alive and being interacted with? How does a Dominant Master only use a submissive slave as a slave???? Is it not actually abuse? To deny a living aspect of another? How would one submit without the acknowledgment of the submissive????... This one leaves me in a quandary .....

Post #: 1

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 5:20:48 PM

Blonderfluff

Posts: 2253
Joined: 10/9/2013
From: Down the Shore
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I am genuinely confused....and I read it twice. What exactly is your question??

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Post #: 2

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 5:28:21 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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I'm with fluffy... a little confused.

I guess a lot depends on your definition of what is a sub and what is a slave.
To me, they are virtually the same and almost inseparable, yet you seem to think they are completely different entities.
My idea of a the difference between a slave and sub are only separated by when consent is given, nothing else.
YMMV of course. And by the sounds of your question, it is worlds apart.

Perhaps you could explain your own perceptions of what a sub and slave are??
'coz I'm as confused as fuck.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to Slavesrelease)

Post #: 3

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 5:35:24 PM

Bucephalus

Posts: 93
Status: offline

I have not a single clue what you just said. Perhaps try to reword your post? Or Clarify at the very least as to what you are trying to get at?

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 4

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 6:04:26 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavesrelease

I have a question that keeps swirling through my mind.... Can a Master just take one as a slave even though the slave may be submissive as well?... (Although personally I can not see where a slave wouldn't be submissive too) Can only one aspect of someone be addressed and thought of, used per se, interactive with, entwined, and the other aspect be left unaddressed? If so does not that person actually lose part of ones self being that only part is alive and being interacted with? How does a Dominant Master only use a submissive slave as a slave???? Is it not actually abuse? To deny a living aspect of another? How would one submit without the acknowledgment of the submissive????... This one leaves me in a quandary .....

How are you defining slave and submissive?

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
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30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

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Post #: 5

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 6:42:26 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavesrelease

... This one leaves me in a quandary .....

Your not the only one....

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 6

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 6:46:25 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

To me, slave and submissive are words we use to describe wiitwd, and we use the words that resonate with us. They mean diffarant things to diffarant people.

I'm totally going out on a limb here, but it sounds like maybe someone is asking you to submit more, or faster, than you are comfortable with, or abandon limits that you still feel you need? Or is the problem something different entirely?

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
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Post #: 7

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 9:20:41 PM

Sirspassion

Posts: 57
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

I'm totally going out on a limb here, but it sounds like maybe someone is asking you to submit more, or faster, than you are comfortable with, or abandon limits that you still feel you need? Or is the problem something different entirely?

I feel this is right on. I am inclined to think it is the responsibility and first priority of the Master/Dom to be committed to the entirety of the s-type's well-being. That the s-type (slave or submissive) is not one without the other. In my limited personal inexperience (awareness of ds with no reverence to the dynamic) I came to understand I cannot be a slave without first being submissive, despite the pressure of the inexperience d-type to attempt to distinguish the two. Then again, could this be the sado maso side of wiit some do?

In that, I too am interested to learn if my current understanding will be expanded.

< Message edited by Sirspassion -- 5/8/2014 9:36:01 PM >

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 8

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 11:39:53 PM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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OP, you're over thinking this.

As other smart posters have pointed out, there isn't a standard definition of sub or slave in the context of the kinky stuff we do. These definitions end up being very specific to a particular relationship.

So your question about what happens if one aspect is overlooked or ignored becomes a question of the different definitions the parties are using.

Ultimately though, if someone has a need that their partner is not addressing then they should talk about that need, and if it is never going to be addressed, they need to either compromise or leave.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Slavesrelease)

Post #: 9

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/8/2014 11:51:39 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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"Can a Master just take one as a slave even though the slave may be submissive as well?"
. . . Marking your words, "a slave that may be submissive as well" meaning not to take a submissive as a slave but to take a slave that is also submissive . . . I would say yes. Although I see the roles of submissive and slave as quite different, there are many crossover areas between them. Even for a hardcore Master that cannot abide the negotiations and freedoms a submissive expects, there are many things both of you can share and enjoy in M/s that are in the D/s arena.

With that in mind, it negates your other comments and perspective about abuse and losing yourself because you are NOT a submissive being force fit into the role of a slave. You are both. In my mind, to validate the force fit and neglect perspective, you would have to change the premises of your post.

_____________________________

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Post #: 10

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/9/2014 11:23:22 AM

Musicmystery

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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavesrelease

Can a Master just take one as a slave even though the slave may be submissive as well?... (Although personally I can not see where a slave wouldn't be submissive too)

I can't either, so I can't imagine where your question is coming from or what you expect to hear.

(in reply to Slavesrelease)

Post #: 11

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/9/2014 7:23:37 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

I think your definitions of sub and slave are causing the problem here. Honestly the same person can be submissive to one, slave to another, and just bottom to the third. It depends on how the two of you relate to each other.

But you're using all kinds of negative terms. Stating that your needs are being denied, unmet, unaddressed, and an attempt to kill them off is being made. I hope this is just being overdramatic.

However, it does seem as though you jumped into this relationship too soon and are now discovering that you aren't compatible. Which is always a good thing to learn as early as possible. Next time make sure you're compatible before committing.

He doesn't have to fulfill your needs if he isn't interested. He is allowed his limits. Same for you. These things are part of compatibility. He has every right to want to be with a person with whom he is compatible and not to be with someone with whom he isn't compatible.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/9/2014 7:26:35 PM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 12

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 12:19:20 PM

TSOsHouse

Posts: 1
Joined: 7/21/2010
Status: offline

I feel compelled to chime in here. I have lived this lifestyle for over 2 decades r/t. Over the years, I have seen the "definition" of both slave and submissive bastardized. I know that last sentence will set some of you reading this off, but I suggest reading it all with an open mind prior to jumping to conclusions. However, why would you do that anyway because we are all supposed to be non-judgmental. I digress...

Okay...

While there are some similarities between a sub and slave, the biggest differences are that a sub retains "choice" while a slave has given up that right. Yes, some slaves are still allowed a safe word, but that is "supposed to" only apply while under consideration or during a trial period of time. Also some submissives are only submissive in a portion of their life while a slave is slave in EVERY aspect of their life. Additionally, both a sub and a slave may or may not be in that position to everyone. For example, in a poly house, an alpha slave is slave to their Master but may or may not be to other slaves in the same house. That depends on the hierarchy of the house.

I hope that helps clear things up.

TSO

(in reply to Slavesrelease)

Post #: 13

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 12:58:04 PM

Slavesrelease

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Joined: 10/6/2013
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I appreciate everyone's responses and dully apologize for confusion set forth. I will attempt to clarify some. In my experience I have found that there is quite a difference between a submissive and a slave. A submissive follows direction of the Dominant but retains her right to question, refuse politely and with reason and can at any point walk away. Whereas, a slave has given up all rights to ones self and relies upon the sole discretion of ones Master for any and all well being. My relationship is 5 plus years in the making, a slave/submissive and kept and taken care of in both aspects for many of these years leading up until recently. But now find myself in the position of feeling only thought of as His slave, a submissive collared slave at best. We had separated briefly a few months back for almost two months and during that time another was used as His submissive. W/we then got back together, and I worked my way back to O/out previous relationship status. It is since then that there seems to be something vastly missing. He addresses me as His slave but often leaves out my submissive side. The M/s is just as it has always been but the D/s seems weak and unattended. This is where my question lay. As for the term I used "abuse", probably bad term lets say hurtful. Also, any negativity that comes across is only in the empty ness that seems lost from what I am asking about.

Again, apologizes on not stating things clearly. My head is having the same problem....

Thanks for your responses!

(in reply to TSOsHouse)

Post #: 14

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 1:17:13 PM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavesrelease
...A submissive follows direction of the Dominant but retains her right to question, refuse politely and with reason and can at any point walk away.

As can a slave - at least in this modern era where true slavery has been abolished.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slavesrelease
Whereas, a slave has given up all rights to ones self and relies upon the sole discretion of ones Master for any and all well being.

This is exactly the same for a sub when they are submitting.
Their Dom/me is responsible for their well being.

Every definition of slave/sub is different depending on the individual dynamic and house.
But from my PoV, the only real difference between a slave and a sub are when they give that permission.
For a sub, the D-type needs (or should) ask at every interjection of the scene being enacted; whether that's in the bedroom, a play scene, or whenever.
For a slave, that permission is given at the start of the relationship and doesn't need to be sought again until it ends.
But, no matter what you label yourself as, everyone has the right to refuse anything beyond their limits and has the right to walk away.
Also, regardless of what s-type you are, your D-type has the responsibility of your well-being whilst under their care. Period.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to Slavesrelease)

Post #: 15

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 1:36:00 PM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TSOsHouse

I feel compelled to chime in here. I have lived this lifestyle for over 2 decades r/t. Over the years, I have seen the "definition" of both slave and submissive bastardized. I know that last sentence will set some of you reading this off, but I suggest reading it all with an open mind prior to jumping to conclusions. However, why would you do that anyway because we are all supposed to be non-judgmental. I digress...

Okay...

While there are some similarities between a sub and slave, the biggest differences are that a sub retains "choice" while a slave has given up that right. Yes, some slaves are still allowed a safe word, but that is "supposed to" only apply while under consideration or during a trial period of time. Also some submissives are only submissive in a portion of their life while a slave is slave in EVERY aspect of their life. Additionally, both a sub and a slave may or may not be in that position to everyone. For example, in a poly house, an alpha slave is slave to their Master but may or may not be to other slaves in the same house. That depends on the hierarchy of the house.

I hope that helps clear things up.

TSO

And, I'm really glad this works for you - It certainly doesn't seem that outlandish to me - Although, for me - personally - and without suggesting for a second that I'd deny you the right to define these things your way - the whole under consideration thing in the context of slavery feels like a complete nonsense.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to TSOsHouse)

Post #: 16

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 2:02:37 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TSOsHouse

I feel compelled to chime in here. I have lived this lifestyle for over 2 decades r/t. Over the years, I have seen the "definition" of both slave and submissive bastardized. I know that last sentence will set some of you reading this off, but I suggest reading it all with an open mind prior to jumping to conclusions. However, why would you do that anyway because we are all supposed to be non-judgmental. I digress...

Okay...

While there are some similarities between a sub and slave, the biggest differences are that a sub retains "choice" while a slave has given up that right. Yes, some slaves are still allowed a safe word, but that is "supposed to" only apply while under consideration or during a trial period of time. Also some submissives are only submissive in a portion of their life while a slave is slave in EVERY aspect of their life. Additionally, both a sub and a slave may or may not be in that position to everyone. For example, in a poly house, an alpha slave is slave to their Master but may or may not be to other slaves in the same house. That depends on the hierarchy of the house.

I hope that helps clear things up.

TSO

It may be how it is supposed to work through the perception of your experience, but that does not match that of mine.
I am [my] Master's slave and I have had a safeword from the very begining. It was His first official instruction to me and in over 5 years that has not changed.
What I am trying to say is that generalisations often don't match the specific circumstance of individual relationships.

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to TSOsHouse)

Post #: 17

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 8:51:44 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

You ended your relationship for a reason. You never addressed the issues that caused it to end. You never addressed the unmet needs.

Then you jumped into a brand new relationship with him, without bothering to talk things out to see if you were any more compatible this time then you had been the first time.

It didn't work the first time, and it still doesn't work.

Sit down, explain that you need to start from zero, and that until such a point ever occurs that you feel he can be trusted to fulfill your needs willingly, you are taking back your power.

But really, there's a reason most people don't get back with their ex. You might think about that.

Oh, and the girl who just jumped into submitting to him the moment you walked out? He was having an affair with her before you left. I'd bet real money on that. So what do you get out of this relationship that makes it worthwhile to stay with someone who lies and cheats? Because you're getting something, otherwise you wouldn't be there. I suggest you figure that out, as it's the first step to becoming healthy and being attracted to healthy partners instead of dysfunctional ones.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 5/10/2014 8:54:49 PM >

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 18

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/10/2014 8:54:13 PM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

Could you please clarify who your response is to?
I am fairly certain it is not to me.

_____________________________

The original home of the caffeinated psychotic hair pixies.
(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 19

RE: slave vs. submissive .... Can they be separated ? - 5/11/2014 7:33:18 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Sorry, Angelika. It was a fr to the op.

Of course it wasn't to you, you're one of the most self aware people on these boards and wouldn't get yourself into a relationship that left you unfulfilled the way the op has.

This whole twue slave nonsense is just that. If he wants me to speak up when unhappy, and orders me to do so, that doesn't make me a lowly sub instead of a true slave. What it makes me is someone smart enough to pick a partner who wants to hear when there are problems, and who wants me to call a halt instead of allowing the problem to ruin the relationship. The label does not make the relationship.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to angelikaJ)

Post #: 20

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