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What would the world be like without U.S. interventionism? - 5/10/2014 7:37:47 AM   
vincentML


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What would the world be like without U.S. interventionism?

This question was raised in a documentary I viewed recently.

Laying aside our 19th Century and early 20th Century adventures in imperialism, our late 20th Century interventions have been of two sorts: humanitarian intervention (Kosovo where we acted and Rwanda where we did not) and protective intervention (Kuwait, southern Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, etc.) Intervention has cost us lives and treasure. We have military troops stationed throughout Europe and in some Middle East nations. Also in Japan, Korea, and in the straits of Taiwan. We safeguard the sea routes to transport oil from the Middle East to Japan, China, and Europe. (The U.S. is actually a minor consumer of Middle Eastern oil.)

We are currently the world’s only super power. Many people in the world despise us for being bullies while others seek our protection. And mostly those nations under U.S. protection spend very little of their GDP on military defense. The American military budget is twice the amount of the next three or four military forces combined.

What would the world be like if one day we elected a president and congress who brought home all our troops and decided to spend a portion of our defense budget on badly needed infrastructure improvement? Would the nations of the world sort out their interests peacefully? Do we have a responsibility to maintain Pax Americana on a worldwide basis? Do we have a greater, overriding responsibility to reducing our national debt and providing a social safety net for our own people?

Your thoughts????
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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 8:14:33 AM   
Musicmystery


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International shipping would be greatly reduced, much more expensive, you'd pay more for nearly everything, and the economy would be slower, with fewer jobs.

Why? The US Navy makes this possible.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 10:23:16 AM   
cloudboy


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So US invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam - along with meddling in Iran (Installing the shah), Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, -- have lowered world prices for goods and services? And it is I only the US navy that is relevant, as well?

I'm not sure I can agree with this conclusion.

---------

OP: I dont't think the question has to be all or nothing i.e. Total isolation or hyper-meddling. But the short answer to your question is that the US and the world would be a better place it the USA engaged is less military imperialism.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/10/2014 10:27:27 AM >

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 10:42:11 AM   
Phydeaux


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South Korea falls.

China moves aggressively into the Pacific bullying is neighbors.
Japan enters China s orbit.

Russia picks off weak links in Europe includingUkraine
Moldavia Baltic States.

Russia aggressively gotta after Arctic resources.

Egypt falls to Islamic terrorists as it is currently propped up by 4 bit a year in us aid.

Islamic terrorists engulf the Arab spring states as well as Nigeria kenya.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 11:05:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

So US invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq, and Vietnam - along with meddling in Iran (Installing the shah), Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, -- have lowered world prices for goods and services? And it is I only the US navy that is relevant, as well?

I'm not sure I can agree with this conclusion.


---------

OP: I dont't think the question has to be all or nothing i.e. Total isolation or hyper-meddling. But the short answer to your question is that the US and the world would be a better place it the USA engaged is less military imperialism.

No wonder. It's not what I concluded. Read the words, not your bias. I didn't say anything even remotely close to that.

If you're just going to make up others' content, you don't need a discussion board -- just let the voices in your head fight it out.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/10/2014 11:07:03 AM >

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 11:16:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
What would the world be like without U.S. interventionism?
This question was raised in a documentary I viewed recently.
Laying aside our 19th Century and early 20th Century adventures in imperialism, our late 20th Century interventions have been of two sorts: humanitarian intervention (Kosovo where we acted and Rwanda where we did not) and protective intervention (Kuwait, southern Philippines, Taiwan, Korea, etc.) Intervention has cost us lives and treasure. We have military troops stationed throughout Europe and in some Middle East nations. Also in Japan, Korea, and in the straits of Taiwan. We safeguard the sea routes to transport oil from the Middle East to Japan, China, and Europe. (The U.S. is actually a minor consumer of Middle Eastern oil.)
We are currently the world’s only super power. Many people in the world despise us for being bullies while others seek our protection. And mostly those nations under U.S. protection spend very little of their GDP on military defense. The American military budget is twice the amount of the next three or four military forces combined.
What would the world be like if one day we elected a president and congress who brought home all our troops and decided to spend a portion of our defense budget on badly needed infrastructure improvement? Would the nations of the world sort out their interests peacefully? Do we have a responsibility to maintain Pax Americana on a worldwide basis? Do we have a greater, overriding responsibility to reducing our national debt and providing a social safety net for our own people?
Your thoughts????


It's a very interesting question, Vincent.

Whose responsibility is it to maintain our infrastructure? Is that a Federal responsibility? Have our gasoline tax dollars gone towards road/bridge/infrastructure maintenance (each level of government adding taxes should have some sort of reason for the tax, right? I mean, we don't increase the gasoline tax to cover Medicare/Medicaid expenses, right?), or somewhere else? Granted, at this point, we aren't going to get any wasted tax dollars (defined in this specific case as gasoline tax dollars that were spent on things that had nothing to do with maintaining roads, streets, bridges, or other structures that would incur wear, tear, and damage due to vehicular use) back, and government doesn't positively produce money (taxation is negative production because it takes it away from consumers), so the taxpayers are going to end up getting fucked for these repairs. But, not doing something about the waste of tax revenues and going ahead and doing the needed maintenance isn't enabling the irresponsible behavior.

Would other nations settle their disputes peacefully? Some would and some wouldn't. I do think there would likely be more disputes settled non-peacefully. Would that violent dispute resolution impact us materially here in the US? Probably not likely all that much. Obviously, Israel would be in trouble. I think the world would devolve back towards the "old" days of war and conquest. It wouldn't devolve all the way, but I do think there would be a step back. At this point in World development, the US can defend itself and might only lose some outlying territories that are furthest away, but I'm not sure we'd see much of a change here. Other countries are are currently the (or a big part of) de facto military for would have to increase their military spending, but I think many of those countries would be able to protect their own borders relatively well. It would be the smaller, less developed nations that would be more likely to see increased violence and warring conquest, imo.

Do we have a responsibility to maintain world peace? If that's what the world wants, why not? But, imo, it shouldn't come solely at the cost of the US taxpayer. How we would charge, though, would be nuts, as those who don't want us to be World Cop wouldn't want to pay, and/or there would be an awful lot of "free riders" to it. Shouldn't this have been where the UN went? Shouldn't the UN have been the mediator for disputes between or among different countries?

We have a social safety net in America now. We have a responsibility to the US taxpayer and future generations to fix our profligate spending and burgeoning national debt.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 11:20:31 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
International shipping would be greatly reduced, much more expensive, you'd pay more for nearly everything, and the economy would be slower, with fewer jobs.
Why? The US Navy makes this possible.


Would there truly be a slower economy with fewer jobs, though? Why would there be? With an increased cost of international shipping, wouldn't manufacturing jobs come back (or not have left in the first place)? Wouldn't that mean more people working for more money here?

I agree with your initial premise that international shipping would be more expensive. I'm not sure your analysis of what that would mean, in the long run, is so accurate.

If your initial premise (regarding international shipping costs) is correct, is that truly a bad thing?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 12:18:37 PM   
Musicmystery


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I didn't say whether it was good or bad -- just that these are the facts.

The rest is Economics 101 -- Comparative Advantage and lost exports. People buy fewer of more expensive goods (assuming elasticity of demand--and most goods are elastic), and that means fewer jobs to manufacture those goods. It's also a less efficient use of labor, which further increases costs, decreases production, and costs jobs. And with fewer jobs, wages would drop as well, still further decreasing consumption, lowering production, costing jobs.

Both unemployment and the cost of goods would rise.

Good or bad? Up to your ideology. But that's the reality of it. Very basic economics--freshman stuff.




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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 12:46:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

South Korea falls.

China moves aggressively into the Pacific bullying is neighbors.
Japan enters China s orbit.

Russia picks off weak links in Europe includingUkraine
Moldavia Baltic States.

Russia aggressively gotta after Arctic resources.

Egypt falls to Islamic terrorists as it is currently propped up by 4 bit a year in us aid.

Islamic terrorists engulf the Arab spring states as well as Nigeria kenya.

Egypt has one of the strongest militaries in the ME. They have moved quickly to decimate the Islamic Brotherhood. However, they lack oil resources so it is possible they would be tempted to take Kuwait.

Wouldn't Iran and Israel inevitably engage in an existential war? I think that would be in the cards.

The price of oil would surely sky rocket since oil is a world commodity. That could lead to a major market crash and economic recession in the West.?

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 12:54:20 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

government doesn't positively produce money (taxation is negative production because it takes it away from consumers),


But government spends it elsewhere and circulates the money to other potential consumers. Taxation is a negative production when the federal budget is in deficit or when money is borrowed from the Social Security Account and never returned. Otherwise, government provides a service to citizens in many ways and those service have to be paid for.

Don't you think?

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:00:18 PM   
Musicmystery


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Actually, money is entirely a creation of government, through the fractional banking system. The level is even monitored and adjusted by the Fed.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:21:43 PM   
MrBukani


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You like rubbin eachothers cocks dont you?

Hurah hurah the world would be nothing without america hahahah.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:23:22 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

International shipping would be greatly reduced, much more expensive, you'd pay more for nearly everything, and the economy would be slower, with fewer jobs.

Why? The US Navy makes this possible.


The false assumption here is that piracy would immediately be rampant.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:26:45 PM   
crazyml


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America would collapse within three decades.

It's not as if US intervention (or any other country's) is done to make the world a better place.

It's done to make their world a better place.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:29:32 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

South Korea falls.
To whom?

China moves aggressively into the Pacific bullying is neighbors.

That hasn't been working so well with viet nam and the phillipines revently now has it?
With no u.s. intervention.


Japan enters China s orbit.

You think the chinese can kick japans ass?

Russia picks off weak links in Europe includingUkraine
Moldavia Baltic States.

They don't control them now?

Russia aggressively gotta after Arctic resources

Nothing stopping the u.s. from doing the same thing..

Egypt falls to Islamic terrorists as it is currently propped up by 4 bit a year in us aid.

How do you know this?

Islamic terrorists engulf the Arab spring states as well as Nigeria kenya.

Any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion?

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:43:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani the world would be nothing without america hahahah.

Except that no one said that.

The Dutch had their chance, and fucked it up through overreaching. The U.S. will eventually do the same.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 1:47:08 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

International shipping would be greatly reduced, much more expensive, you'd pay more for nearly everything, and the economy would be slower, with fewer jobs.

Why? The US Navy makes this possible.


The false assumption here is that piracy would immediately be rampant.


No, the accurate reality is that piracy existed beforehand, and that shipping today, with the exception of a few regions, proceeds uninhibited.

And we do this to protect our own interests. Global interests in this regard just happen to be aligned.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 2:58:00 PM   
jlf1961


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The US has to intervene everywhere, how else would we test all those expensive high tech weapons and use the MOAB's we developed?

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 3:03:03 PM   
Musicmystery


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Yepper.

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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 3:08:55 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I didn't say whether it was good or bad -- just that these are the facts.
The rest is Economics 101 -- Comparative Advantage and lost exports. People buy fewer of more expensive goods (assuming elasticity of demand--and most goods are elastic), and that means fewer jobs to manufacture those goods. It's also a less efficient use of labor, which further increases costs, decreases production, and costs jobs. And with fewer jobs, wages would drop as well, still further decreasing consumption, lowering production, costing jobs.
Both unemployment and the cost of goods would rise.
Good or bad? Up to your ideology. But that's the reality of it. Very basic economics--freshman stuff.


Why would fewer people buy more expensive goods? All that stuff will have to be made here and not imported, won't it? Won't the price advantage return to the US, leading to more manufacturing, more employment, etc.?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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