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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:15:21 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Mongols tried it, and gradually turned an Empire that controlled half the globe into an isolated mess it wouldn't recover from until the mid 20th century.

Any validation for this moronic tripe?


LOL!

History, dude.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/10/2014 5:18:03 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:23:56 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Mongols tried it, and gradually turned an Empire that controlled half the globe into an isolated mess it wouldn't recover from until the mid 20th century.

Any validation for this moronic tripe?


LOL!

History, dude.




Do not the ming and manchu dynasties exist in your zip code?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:28:17 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		See, last time I checked, the decline from the Mongol Empire to the mid 20th century passes through the manchu and ming dynasties.

So I can't imagine what the hell you think you're talking about.

And no, neither exists in my zip code. Actually, today, neither exists. But when they did, they were in Asia. I live in North America. That's on Earth. Third planet from the sun.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:34:38 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

See, last time I checked, the decline from the Mongol Empire to the mid 20th century passes through the manchu and ming dynasties.

So I can't imagine what the hell you think you're talking about.



Your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion is that the ming and manchu dynasties were nothing compared to the yuan and as such represent a decline????Yet you offer no validation for such an asanine position.


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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:36:10 PM   
wittynamehere


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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:40:51 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

See, last time I checked, the decline from the Mongol Empire to the mid 20th century passes through the manchu and ming dynasties.

So I can't imagine what the hell you think you're talking about.



Your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion is that the ming and manchu dynasties were nothing compared to the yuan and as such represent a decline????Yet you offer no validation for such an asanine position.



Since I said nothing of the sort, I think the ignorant/asinine award goes to you.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/10/2014 5:41:09 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 5:50:47 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

See, last time I checked, the decline from the Mongol Empire to the mid 20th century passes through the manchu and ming dynasties.

So I can't imagine what the hell you think you're talking about.



Your ignorant unsubstantiated opinion is that the ming and manchu dynasties were nothing compared to the yuan and as such represent a decline????Yet you offer no validation for such an asanine position.



Since I said nothing of the sort, I think the ignorant/asinine award goes to you.



You quite clearly said
"the decline from the Mongol Empire to the mid 20th century passes through the manchu and ming dynasties. "
Does that not say that the manchu and ming were a decline from the yuan?


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:12:53 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		And does that timeline not pass through those dynasties?

WTF.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:14:47 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Mongols tried it, and gradually turned an Empire that controlled half the globe into an isolated mess it wouldn't recover from until the mid 20th century.

Any validation for this moronic tripe?


LOL!

History, dude.




Do not the ming and manchu dynasties exist in your zip code?


The Qing dynasty was a Manchu dynasty, but the Manchu are a a tribal culture in Manchuria, not a person, hence4 not a dynasty. A minor point, but significant.

The Ming dynasty was marked by early expansion, but turned its attention internally, not know for many advances. The first emperor ladi the ground work for authoritarian rule, and emphasized agrarian development.

FYI, Manchuria is actually a part of China, has been since before the Ming dynasty, so not really a foreign invader.

China does not even rate in the top ten long lived empires or kingdoms, so why you are singing their praises, I dont have a clue.

Form the longest, the top ten:
Roman/Eastern Roman Empire 1,480
Kush Empire from 1070 B.C. to around 350 A.D or 720 years
Republic of Venice 1100 years
Silla Empire 992 years
Holy Roman Empire 844 years
Kanem Empire 676 years
Ethiopian Empire 665 years
Khmer Empire 630 years
Ottoman Empire 623 years
Portuguese Empire 584 years.

China is not a long lived empire simply because there is no direct ruling line, the ruling dynasties have been over thrown by revolts and invasion since day one.

So using china as an example is a bit of a stretch, the Silla empire on the Korean peninsula lasted longer.

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(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:24:05 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		All conclusions need reasoning behind them. Your first post was and continues to be about 90% conclusion / declaration and maybe 10% reasoning and 0% facts, figures, and references. I cannot readily agree that without US force there's a complete power vacuum and lawlessness out on the high seas, and policing the high seas is completely different than being interventionist.

One might credibly argue the polar opposite of your conclusion as well, that if US played a smaller role -- other nations with more sense would contribute to the order needed for overseas commerce.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:25:52 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Have it your way. If it's not apparent to you, there's no point trying to make you see it.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:26:24 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All that stuff will have to be made here and not imported, won't it? Won't the price advantage return to the US, leading to more manufacturing, more employment, etc.?


naw, the manufacturing would go to Mexico.. even the aircraft mfrs like boeing are outsourcing down there now.. along with auto mfrs, drug mfg, hersheys, etc etc.. the trend just keeps growing..

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 6:50:51 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		The Qing dynasty was a Manchu dynasty, but the Manchu are a a tribal culture in Manchuria, not a person, hence4 not a dynasty. A minor point, but significant.

The chinese call em a dynasty and they were in business for about 300 years,same same for the ming both of which follow the yuan and both of which are significantly greater than the yuan, thus my point about the "decline since the yuan"

So using china as an example is a bit of a stretch, the Silla empire on the Korean peninsula lasted longer.

I am not using china as an example of anything.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 7:10:43 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Then why bring them up if not as an example?

And the Chinese call the Manchu dynasty after the first ruler, Ming.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 7:48:35 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

South Korea falls.

China moves aggressively into the Pacific bullying is neighbors.
Japan enters China s orbit.

Russia picks off weak links in Europe includingUkraine
Moldavia Baltic States.

Russia aggressively gotta after Arctic resources.

Egypt falls to Islamic terrorists as it is currently propped up by 4 bit a year in us aid.

Islamic terrorists engulf the Arab spring states as well as Nigeria kenya.

Egypt has one of the strongest militaries in the ME. They have moved quickly to decimate the Islamic Brotherhood. However, they lack oil resources so it is possible they would be tempted to take Kuwait.

Wouldn't Iran and Israel inevitably engage in an existential war? I think that would be in the cards.

The price of oil would surely sky rocket since oil is a world commodity. That could lead to a major market crash and economic recession in the West.?


Egypt has a strong military because we support them to the tune of 4 bil a year.
With tourism gone - they are essentially a welfare state.

Iran has no avenue to Israel - and Israel's Iron Dome would be pretty much proof against anything Iran could do. Israel is pretty savvy - once its clear that the US is no longer in the picture - I figure they would act preemptively.

World oil prices already reflect reduced Iranian production.

Whats more interesting is what would happen to the house of Faud; to Jordan, to Yemen.
Yemen falls. Jordan - the kings there are pretty savvy - but they would ally with turkey.
Saudi Arabia...no real change.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 7:53:14 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Oil isn't always interchangeable -- there are different qualities to oil, and different amounts of refining and hence purposes. The Alberta tar sands, for example, is especially dirty oil



Look - the differences between oils is how much hydrogenation they require and how much cracking, desulphurization etc.
But this is essentially a cost question.

Oil wouldn't be a significant problem if the US was able to buy from canada and mexico.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 8:01:25 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

South Korea falls.
To whom?

China moves aggressively into the Pacific bullying is neighbors.

That hasn't been working so well with viet nam and the phillipines revently now has it?
With no u.s. intervention.

Japan enters China s orbit.

You think the chinese can kick japans ass?

Russia picks off weak links in Europe includingUkraine
Moldavia Baltic States.

They don't control them now?

Russia aggressively gotta after Arctic resources

Nothing stopping the u.s. from doing the same thing..

Egypt falls to Islamic terrorists as it is currently propped up by 4 bit a year in us aid.

How do you know this?

Islamic terrorists engulf the Arab spring states as well as Nigeria kenya.

Any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion?


You know you're quite a troll thompson.

How do I know Egypt is propped up by 4 bill in us aid? Because every couple of years or so I read the entire US budget.

As for "any validation for this ignorant unsubstantiated opinion"?

Sure. You're an idiot. You're asking validation (ie., proof) of a hypothetical event. There can be no proof. If you want to ask *why* I think so - thats a different question.

So the original question - what happens if the US basically goes home. In North Africa - this leaves a significant power vaccuum. This means no more intelligence sharing with the arab spring states. It means no more military patrols.
It means that leaders in that region now will look otherwhere.

Europe is bankrupt - and has shown zero ability to deal with protecting its southern border. Military budgets continue to decline. Europe has essentially zero ability to project anything in the region.

The separatists movements that are going on in Mali, egypt, libya, nigeria, and kenya start to flourish. Islamic terror attacks in sudan, darfur, kenya, egypt multiply and they will be aided by Iran, Hezbollah etc

The rest of your comments merit no response.



(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 8:15:19 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Oil isn't always interchangeable -- there are different qualities to oil, and different amounts of refining and hence purposes. The Alberta tar sands, for example, is especially dirty oil



Look - the differences between oils is how much hydrogenation they require and how much cracking, desulphurization etc.
But this is essentially a cost question.

Oil wouldn't be a significant problem if the US was able to buy from canada and mexico.

Cost is why we import oil.

And we already get most of our imported oil from Canada and Latin America.
http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised


(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 8:44:31 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Have it your way. If it's not apparent to you, there's no point trying to make you see it.


Right, if it's not apparent, then you have to demonstrate a point. It is impossible to do, actually.

One might have made the same assertion you did in post 2 about the British back when they were at their imperial height, and Colonialists probably felt they held the world together keeping chaos at bay as well.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/10/2014 8:45:30 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What would the world be like without U.S. intervent... - 5/10/2014 8:46:45 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Okie dokie then.

They're probably out there just playing gin rummy anyway.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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