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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 9:40:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


So ... if one speaks out against the culture of "gangsta rappers", that makes them racist?


Wouldn't it depend on just what one said?

If one speaks out against a "culture" that abhors police (until they need them), that makes them racist?


I believe you have offered your opinion of the cops before and it was not all that complimentary but I would hazard that you would be happy to see one if you were in trouble.
So what is the difference between thee and that which thee objects to?

I ain't buyin' it.

That is quite convenient, don't you think?

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 10:05:01 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


I think that's where some of the miscommunication in this thread is coming from, because of contradictory ideas as to what actually constitutes racism. Some people view it as an "all or nothing" type thing and strictly as an aspect related to skin color or some other external characteristic. Some might see that as an obfuscation, a kind of sophistry and perhaps a form of denial.



It seems to me that you have put your finger on an important point here. There does appear to several quite divergent understandings of what racism is. Which is why I began an earlier post with a definition of racism that I use, and that I feel is quite useful and easy to apply.

That definition is:
Singling any one or any group of people out for special treatment/attention purely or substantially on the grounds of race.

If people feel this definition is inadequate, perhaps they might like to post the understanding of racism that they use and why they feel that definition is superior. If we are all on the same page about what racism is, then that might help clear up any misunderstandings that occur.

_____________________________



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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 10:20:37 AM   
obedientnwilling


Posts: 35
Joined: 9/19/2013
Status: offline 		Well, let's see...as for his handling of Libya, Libya is presently the single fastest-growing economy in the entire world, full stop. A+

Letting Egypt sort out their own affairs, his most substantial intervention being cutting their military's funding, after they started to get a bit out-of-hand, was reasonably effective. B

Being early to realize that Assad's opponents were not really all that much better than Assad...A+

His handling of Iran, I'm afraid, I disagree with him on. He let Netanyahu's paranoid ravings influence his policy on Iran, and it is turning out that Iran's nuclear program really was mostly just a matter of national pride, not actually an attempt to start a nuclear weapons program. Since we did succeed in convincing Iran to get rid of that annoying putz, Ahmadinejad, though, I will grudgingly give Obama a C on this one.

Treating Europe as an equal partner in addressing Putin's actions in Ukraine, while also showing somewhat of an understanding of the complexity of the situation...A, I think. I can't give him extra credit because Putin is still not ending his occupation in Crimea. Although Obama has handled the situation as well as could be expected, extra credit is awarded for pulling off miracles or being the first to realize things that most of us only learn later on. Nothing of the sort has happened as far as Ukraine is concerned, but Obama has nevertheless set very good precedents in his handling of the situation.

Our operations in Pakistan...I'd say this is the only D- in the group. I can't flunk him outright on this one because of the fact that we are, as a matter of fact, there on the invitation of Islamabad. However, he has exercised no creativity whatsoever in finding alternatives to our use of drones. Although I would not be so presumptuous as to say I could think of any more viable alternative, it is his job and the job of his advisers to develop new, more humane methods of addressing these kinds of situations, and nothing has happened in that respect.

Overall, Obama's foreign policy has helped make the world a substantially safer place to live.

< Message edited by obedientnwilling -- 5/23/2014 10:29:25 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 10:51:26 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		ll, let's see...as for his handling of Libya, Libya is presently the single fastest-growing economy in the entire world, full stop. A+

It's economy was doing the same thing before the u.s. created a regeim change.

(in reply to obedientnwilling)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 11:57:01 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


So ... if one speaks out against the culture of "gangsta rappers", that makes them racist?

If one speaks out against a "culture" that abhors police (until they need them), that makes them racist?

I ain't buyin' it.



I'm not saying it "makes them racist," but my only point was that there might be different ideas as to what constitutes race and racism.

As for those who speak out against a culture, again, I will reiterate that I said that I can't read minds. However, I might criticize such a statement on the basis that it's making an unwarranted extrapolation based on a limited set of facts. How people interpret those statements, whether they think it "makes them racist" or not, might be dependent on various factors.

"Culture" can be a rather broad and somewhat vague concept itself. If someone speaks out against a certain culture, then the first order of business would be to try to determine whether or not that "someone" actually knows very much about the actual culture they're speaking out against. Moreover, it's important to consider the history of the overall mainstream culture and how it has impacted upon various cultures and sub-cultures and continues to shape how we look at things even today. What we try to define as elements of "their" culture might also be part of "our" culture, in which sense, it's difficult to separate and say "it's their problem."

I'm not really an expert in culture, and I don't claim to know enough about gangsta rap to be able to identify that as the problem. Or the "culture" that abhors police. A culture that abhors police might produce movies glorifying "Bonnie and Clyde" or "The Godfather." That "culture" crosses all racial and socio-economic lines, to be sure. It was also similar for the urban sub-culture related to gangs and the criminal underworld. If I was going to speak out against some aspect of a culture, it would at least be important to look at all the angles and try to determine historical connections and relationships to the overall culture.

Otherwise, it ends up coming across like some kind of haughty judgment made by an outsider looking in. Even assuming the best of intentions, it seems like an oversimplification and a red herring that doesn't address the true magnitude and complexities of the problem at hand. I'm not saying that "makes" you or anyone else a racist. I think the reason why many people might interpret it as being racist is because it comes across like a hasty rush to judgment without any other "obvious" basis to reach that conclusion.

Some of it might also be the fault of how some of these issues have been addressed by society in general, which relates to the overall culture. It could be that the result of misinformation and the way the media and government have dealt with and presented the issue to the public might create certain perceptions about race which could be called into question.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 12:16:57 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I don't believe I ever said I took it from a website. Since you're the lying bastard that claims to have seen it on a Nazi website, I believe the burden of proof providing a link falls firmly on you.

quote:

The only place I found it other than your post was a racist Nazi web site.


It was nothing more than another of your predictably feeble attempts to shut up the opposing point of view.

-SD-


You posted the song on page 158 of the Zimmerman thread. The first lines starts "Ding dong Trayvon is dead" The only google search for those exact words links to the following.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t875412-3/

S_T_O_R_M_F_R_O_N_T << that well known left wing web site ...... Who the fuck is lying now, is it A) You or B)....... STILL YOU ?

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 12:20:25 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yes, it isnt as if you have never had a racist slur deleted by the mods is it ? Your claim that you "didnt know" was a poor one, given the context you set it in.

Ah yes, the word (not, for the curious, what Polite might like you to think) was "bl**kie," as in the opposite of "wh**ey" which had been widely used without moderation damn near forever. And the context was not expressing my attitude toward blacks but rather mocking yours, which seems to presume that blacks are too stupid to recognize racism on their own and need a Great White Hero to ferret it out for them. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get to be buried next to Al Sharpton.

K.




Yes brains " Dem Po B******" " No racist connotation at all, no matter who you aimed it at.

Even your post above is racist in tone, but then again you wont ever fucking get the point.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 1:31:12 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Really? You're defending racistjim? Really?

No, bozo. I'm pointing out that you're making claims without backing them up, as usual.

Get it now? Glad to help.

Sure. You got the link. Go read it dumbass.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 1:53:41 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yes, it isnt as if you have never had a racist slur deleted by the mods is it ? Your claim that you "didnt know" was a poor one, given the context you set it in.

Ah yes, the word (not, for the curious, what Polite might like you to think) was "bl**kie," as in the opposite of "wh**ey" which had been widely used without moderation damn near forever. And the context was not expressing my attitude toward blacks but rather mocking yours, which seems to presume that blacks are too stupid to recognize racism on their own and need a Great White Hero to ferret it out for them. Maybe if you're lucky you'll get to be buried next to Al Sharpton.

K.




Yes brains " Dem Po B******" " No racist connotation at all, no matter who you aimed it at.

Even your post above is racist in tone, but then again you wont ever fucking get the point.


As usual youre making shit up. There is no song there. Just someone talking about trademarking phrases for tee shirts and bumper stickers. If you think everyone who changed pop culture phrases is racist then you must really be a sad little man. Your white guilt fantasies are not reality.

Where is the song you lied about seeing there?

-SD-




_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 6:31:00 PM   
cloudboy


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Him lecturing or racism is a joke.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 6:37:23 PM   
cloudboy


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Well said. Good analysis. The OP just likes to makes empty proclamations.

(in reply to obedientnwilling)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 6:38:12 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		FR

Since President Obama is only 1/2 Black, does that make me only 1/2 a racist because I pretty much disagree with everything he's done in office.

Let's call in 95% disagree 5% agree.

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http://www.extra-life.org/

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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/23/2014 6:45:41 PM   
cloudboy


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You're on record for saying you'd have wrecked the US and World economy on principle in 2008-09.. Without recommending viable solutions you're not even in the game of a meaningful, productive debate.

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/24/2014 4:17:08 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		It wasn't a racist post but I do agree with one thing you said...nothing he can do will change your mind. Hard to argue with something that came straight out of your imagination. Kinda like trying to convince someone on drugs that they aren't really seeing what they think they are seeing. Better to just let them sit quietly while they wait for the drugs to wear off except in this case I don't think that's gonna happen.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 2:14:59 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

No it doesn't. No one bar blacks is implicated in your statement. No other group is mentioned or implied. Inasmuch as it makes any sense, your statement makes sense if the only group disrespecting blacks are other blacks and only other blacks. There is no need for any other group disrespecting blacks to exist for your statement to make sense. So your claim that other groups are "clearly implicated" is clearly invalid.


There is, of course, nothing in Kirata's statement excludes anyone else besides blacks though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

"Nobody has demonstrated more disrespect" clearly implicates others in disrespecting the black community.


And this of course, is true. Kirata said that most of the disrespect towards blacks are instigated by other blacks. In the English language, "most" (or "more than") does not mean, nor imply "all."



< Message edited by Raiikun -- 5/25/2014 2:15:11 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 2:26:11 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Applying this definition to posts by Polite, I am unable to recall a single instance of Polite unjustifiably applying the charge of racism/racism. If anyone feels my recollection is mistaken, I'd be grateful if they could point an instance of Polite mis-applying the label racism/racist.


Oh, there's plenty. I myself have answered some of these unjustified charges to explain that what he claimed was racist was not "Singling any one or any group of people out for special attention purely or substantially on the grounds of race." ( ( http://www.collarchat.com/m_4494797/mpage_165/key_/tm.htm#4674859 for instance). Since you yourself has made an unjustified charge of racism in this thread though, I'm not sure about your judgement in recognizing the unjustified charges from others.

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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 10:28:13 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		There's always thread drift.

But from foreign policy to who's a racist here seems a pretty drastic change of topic, rather than drift.

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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 10:41:39 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There's always thread drift.

But from foreign policy to who's a racist here seems a pretty drastic change of topic, rather than drift.

Actually, the usual race-trolling started right on Page 1...

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

It certainly galls many Americans to see a black man representing the USA abroad. That's one huge upside of Obama, pissing off all the bigots by simply waking up and doing his job.

I will read the actual article later.

I especially liked the part about not even reading the article.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/25/2014 11:23:42 AM >

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RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 10:42:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Yeah, I caught that and had the same thought.

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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: NYT: Grading Obama's Foreign Policy - 5/25/2014 2:59:35 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		You are missing the point. The very fact that Obama occupies the White House galls many Americans who are bigots. This was a side point and I clearly stated it as such -- but it's a fact. He rubs bigots the wrong way --- no matter what he does --- and I love that no end.

I get the Sunday NYT -- and read the paper and the article later and commented upon it.

The OP's reaction to paragraph (1) above -- actually said more about him than it did about any false sense of "race" trolling you insinuate.

There are a lot of Obama haters out there who simply can't articulate rational policy reasons for their feelings. Couple this with how bigots will never admit being so. What they do is work backwards --- hating Obama -- and then finding "objective looking reasons" to support their feelings and views.

Obama has shown so much class and personal dignity in office, it is just off the charts. Yet, he deals with a lot of haters. The Heretic had an irrational hatred of him from the beginning and continues to display it in the present day.

The right wing also has a Ken Starr like desire to get-him -- and find something he's done to topple his Presidency -- but they haven't come up with shit.

Meanwhile, Congress has been the least productive member of government in the history of the USA. If a critical eye need be pointed anywhere, it's at Congress.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/25/2014 3:01:45 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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