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RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 9:38:42 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Funny thing, human civilization has adapted exclusively for and can survive only in a band where our staple food crops will grow and those staple crops are all temperate zone plants so yes we do need to keep the temp at or near zero on that chart.

We're already looking at centuries of war as populations are displaced as coastal cities flood. Can we maybe keep the global starvation to a minimum?


Alarmist bullshit as usual.

Food production increased dramatically during the last medieval warming period with temperatures warmer than today.

There were farms on Greenland - remember?

And regarding your alarmist bullshit about 'centuries of war'.
Do you not even understand how ridiculous you sound. Even IF your theories of global warming were right (they're not) we're talking ONE FOOT of water by 2050.

You wanna look at a serious climate problem - global cooling..

We're no longer talking about one foot. We've lost the entire western Antarctica ice sheet and Greenland. That means roughly, factoring in thermal increase, a 21m sea level rise over the next several centuries. that means the loss of every coastal city and huge swaths of near costal land. That means huge displacements of populations and loss of farm land. That inevitably means wars.


Snicker.

Yeah. The weatherman can't predict the temperatures one week out and you think you can over several centuries...

The IPCC didn't correctly predict temperatures 10 years out. They have a demonstrated history of being wrong.

And you think this is something we should make a 15 trillion dollar gamble on?

Of course you do.


Weather and climate are not the same thing. Maybe when you understand that we can have meaningful discussion. I suggest until then you move to sea level and commit to staying there no matter what happens.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 9:39:46 AM   
Moderator3


Posts: 3289
Status: offline 		Please trim your quotes and refrain from posting pictures/graphs that distort the page or I will have to remove them for being too large.

If you would, please stop quoting the graph post if you wish to keep it on the thread.

Thank you

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 9:59:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So no liar it isn't factored in and it may well be dumped on to the rate payers.


Who else is going to pay it, Ken? Won't costs of doing business always be borne by rate payers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Power_Station

$33M in fines. I know at least some of the fines were not allowed to be passed on to customers. I asked a couple guys that worked for FirstEnergy about how that works. When they generate power, they typically generate more than what's necessary, and then sell the excess on the market. Those that are buying this excess generation are the ones that pay for those fines that aren't passed on to the "rate payers."

Man, imagine if a company had to divest parts of it's business to pay for these types of fines. FirstEnergy would have had to get rid of $33M worth of it's business, and that could have then been "sold" to FE's competitors. That might make corporations a bit more careful to not cut corners.

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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 1:09:07 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		There are multiple viable ways to skin that cat.

Until someone actually does it the cat shit keeps building up and no one has a clue as to how much it is going to cost. I have heard all of these plans before but still no one has started using any of them...is it universal internatioal gridlock????



Let's get it out of DOE hands and into licensed private faculties where someone can pick a way and follow it through.

You do not trust the govt to do this job but you trust them to license it and provide oversight?

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 1:38:18 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		So here is the same temperature data, based on deuterium concentration. Note the periodicity of the temperature excursion.
Also note that the minoan and roman periods were warmer than current.

Further note that CO2 concentrations did not vary due to AG factors significantly during these historic periods.





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< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 1:40:09 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 1:41:14 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		Saying the same thing using linear regression we can see that since the roman period we have actually been on a cooling trend.




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< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 1:42:39 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 1:50:43 PM   
Tkman117


Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline 		2005 is hardly recent, I remember well how stingy you got with "alarmists" about their sources not being "up to date" but I find it hilarious how you used out of date info or graphs to peddle your pathetic world view that...wait, I thought you agreed that temperatures were increasing but that humans weren't the confounding variable? Instead you seem to peddling the idea today that we're going into a cooling period. Cmon man, if you're going to make stupid claims at least keep them consistent.

Also, NO ONE is arguing that CO2 is the ONLY factor that can affect global temperatures over earth's history. Get that through your thick head and we might be able to talk intellectually.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 5/22/2014 1:52:31 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 1:58:13 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		More of the same....

Again amply documented that the temperatures in the Medieval warm period, and the minoan warming period, but most especially, the previous interglacial - were warmer, and for tens of thousands of years MUCH WARMER than now.




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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:05:54 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		And this shows that even on a geologic time scale that the association between temperature and co2 contration is *weak*.


Ie., examine the Jurassic Ice age - where for 100 million years there was a significant variation between temperature and CO2 concentration.
The same can be observed by looking at the data from 25 million years ago.


I personally have no real question that Co2 is a weakly linked to temperature. However, it is by no means established that CO2 leads temperature - or lags them.
Likewise, it is pretty fairly clear that there are other far more important sources of temperature variation.

How do we know? Because the historical record shows 15oC variations in temperature absent any significant change in Co2 concentration.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 2:07:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:12:54 PM   
Phydeaux


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Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

2005 is hardly recent, I remember well how stingy you got with "alarmists" about their sources not being "up to date" but I find it hilarious how you used out of date info or graphs to peddle your pathetic world view that...wait, I thought you agreed that temperatures were increasing but that humans weren't the confounding variable? Instead you seem to peddling the idea today that we're going into a cooling period. Cmon man, if you're going to make stupid claims at least keep them consistent.

Also, NO ONE is arguing that CO2 is the ONLY factor that can affect global temperatures over earth's history. Get that through your thick head and we might be able to talk intellectually.


And yet, as I indicated before, if you read the executive summary of the last IPCC report, it indicates one and only one driver for climate change. Co2 concentration. And states only one prescription for dealing with it - cutting Co2 emissions.

I have consistently stated that I need to advance no theory to demonstrate that the IPCC theory is wrong.

And while I personally feel that on a scale of thousands of years that we may well be likely to be heading toward a period of cooling, in no case to I portray this as scientific consensus, or even that my reading on the matter has convinced me. Nor do I advocate any great urgency to deal with it. Nor, actually that it is a pressing catastrophe likely to result in 'centuries of wars.'

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 2:14:00 PM >

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RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:38:18 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Phydeaux, charts without accompanying data is about as informative as a blank newspaper, would you mind providing links to the pages you got these from?

At least my links included the articles detailing the findings.

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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:45:20 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		I have previously documented that NASA is 'fudging' (aka .. processing) global satellite temperatures. And in the past I've provided links.
Such as when NASA removed 1934 as the hottest year on record; when it deleted 350 groundstations and mathematically applied a correction factor double the established standard for ground stations.

I don't have many of those old data anymore dating back as far as 1992. However, someone else has picked up on the same item.

Details here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/01/31/japans-cool-hand-luke-moment-for-surface-temperature/

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:47:17 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Phydeaux, charts without accompanying data is about as informative as a blank newspaper, would you mind providing links to the pages you got these from?

At least my links included the articles detailing the findings.


I'll circle back an try to provide links, after I finish on a few more topics.

http://geoweb.princeton.edu/people/bender/lab/downloads/Petit_et_al_1999_copy.pdf
http://www.climate4you.com/index.htm

The minoan, roman graph is http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921818111001457

Heres yet another paper showing that the Institute of Physics in Belgrade Serbia demonstrates a significan link between Forbush events and increases in diurnal temperatures. In other words, this is confirmation of Svensmark.

http://www.astrophys-space-sci-trans.net/7/315/2011/astra-7-315-2011.pdf

Bill Illis is the source of CO2 concentration over 750 million years http://forum.weatherzone.com.au/ubbthreads.php/topics/1113581/The_Science_in_AGW_Climate_Cha

Good argument on Co2 vs temperature lead/lag http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/30/co2-temperatures-and-ice-ages/

The linear regression of temperature graph was done by J. Esper at Johannes Gutenberg University. http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v2/n12/full/nclimate1589.html

So I believe that is data sources for all graphs now.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 3:33:18 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 2:53:57 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		New paper, published in nature climate change claims the probably of catastrophic global warming is much less than claimed by IPCC:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-paper-rules-out-catastrophic-global.html

And a second paper accounts for 96% of climate variation using 11 factors. Of which CO2 is one. Quoting
"Climate sensitivity, the response of the carbon cycle and aerosol effects remain highly uncertain"

Ah but so much for settled science.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:14:38 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

This Glass Sphere Could Revolutionize Solar Power on Earth
We all know that the sun is the greatest sustainable energy source available on Earth, but we're not quite at the stage where we're using it to the highest potential. The majority of PhotoVoltaic panels across the globe have a performance of just 15% or lower, and if these panels aren't tracking the movement of the sun in the sky, they are losing even more power throughout the year. Solar energy is not yet as efficient as it should be.
Andre Broessel, a German architect living in Barcelona, has the solution. He wants to "squeeze more juice out of the sun." That's why he created Rawlemon.

I mean if climate change ad peak oil is a myth, then we really dont need something like this, right?

Why does it matter if climate change or peak oil are myths?
Most of what I could find said something about "crowdfunding." By golly, methinks there might be something to this private sector capitalism thingy...
Two thoughts:
1. Very cool looking design, and I sure hope it works out.
2. That's A LOT of glass.
Seriously, the aesthetics are awesome. If it works as the stated, it will also create energy from moon light (or, from sunlight reflected off the moon), which is quite an interesting idea. Hopefully the dual axis tracking system doesn't use up much power, and that creating kajillions of glass orbs doesn't ruin the whole "carbon reduction" strategy of solar power.

And....regardless of who is right, it no longer matters.
We can do better.
This whole "blame game" is a waste of ink.
We can do better.


What blame game was in my post?

I am very supportive of the private sector taking the reins and making stuff like this happen.



Sorry...not your blame game...the world's.

My error.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:19:14 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

New paper, published in nature climate change claims the probably of catastrophic global warming is much less than claimed by IPCC:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-paper-rules-out-catastrophic-global.html

And a second paper accounts for 96% of climate variation using 11 factors. Of which CO2 is one. Quoting
"Climate sensitivity, the response of the carbon cycle and aerosol effects remain highly uncertain"

Ah but so much for settled science.

You fool.

It's one blog citing a periodical and linking instead to a blog, and the piece on the other blog cites the same periodical and links back to the same blog. You've been had.

So much for "sources."

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:20:11 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

New paper, published in nature climate change claims the probably of catastrophic global warming is much less than claimed by IPCC:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-paper-rules-out-catastrophic-global.html

And a second paper accounts for 96% of climate variation using 11 factors. Of which CO2 is one. Quoting
"Climate sensitivity, the response of the carbon cycle and aerosol effects remain highly uncertain"

Ah but so much for settled science.

You fool.

It's one blog citing a periodical and linking instead to a blog, and the piece on the other blog cites the same periodical and links back to the same blog. You've been had.

So much for "sources."


"Jane, you IGNORANT SLUT!!!!!"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:23:42 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

New paper, published in nature climate change claims the probably of catastrophic global warming is much less than claimed by IPCC:

http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.com/2013/05/new-paper-rules-out-catastrophic-global.html

And a second paper accounts for 96% of climate variation using 11 factors. Of which CO2 is one. Quoting
"Climate sensitivity, the response of the carbon cycle and aerosol effects remain highly uncertain"

Ah but so much for settled science.

You fool.

It's one blog citing a periodical and linking instead to a blog, and the piece on the other blog cites the same periodical and links back to the same blog. You've been had.

So much for "sources."


"Jane, you IGNORANT SLUT!!!!!"



Apparently you lack the skill to get to the actual abstracts. Not my issue.

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v6/n6/full/ngeo1836.html

Second source, as listed above.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 3:30:21 PM >

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:29:04 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Apparently you didn't read the links from your own sources. Because there is no such paper.

"Not your issue" because "nature climate change" is a blog, not a periodical publishing papers.

You're a fool.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: I guess since Climate Change is a myth, this is a d... - 5/22/2014 3:36:17 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Apparently you didn't read the links from your own sources. Because there is no such paper.

"Not your issue" because "nature climate change" is a blog, not a periodical publishing papers.

You're a fool.



And you're an arrogant prick who is flat out wrong. Both papers were published and peer reviewed and links provided.
But you can't dispute the science so once again you attack people, rather than data.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/22/2014 3:37:49 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 60
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