Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls

Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/20/2014 7:22:46 PM)
Only losers would be affected by voter ID laws, right? [;)] He went to early vote Monday morning at the courthouse in Bentonville. A TV crew was expected to be there to record the moment. As he was walking up to the building: "I realized I didn't have my ID." He'd left it at his law office in Rogers. "I retrieved it and I voted and that's it." He laughed at himself for the flub, which he said cost him maybe a 10-minute drive to his office and back. http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2014/05/20/oops-voter-id-law-may-have-briefly-tripped-up-law-advocate-asa-hutchinson

Exidor -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/23/2014 5:02:15 AM)
If you're at your assigned polling place you don't need your Voter ID card, just any state-issued photo ID. That's a driver's license, concealed handgun permit, state employee ID card with photo, or the not-a-driver's-license ID, which the state will sell you at a nominal price so you can buy liquor or cash checks, that sort of thing. (this is the infamous Jim Crow card, which the media crazies claim puts up a financial voting barrier to the elderly and ethnic. The card is $5 and is good for five years.) Most men keep their driver's license in their wallet; odd Mr. Hutchinson either didn't keep his there, or didn't bring his wallet. I handed over my gun permit with my Voter ID. (which is just a paper card, no lamination or picture) The elderly lady working the poll didn't bat an eye.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/24/2014 6:44:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Only losers would be affected by voter ID laws, right? [;)] He went to early vote Monday morning at the courthouse in Bentonville. A TV crew was expected to be there to record the moment. As he was walking up to the building: "I realized I didn't have my ID." He'd left it at his law office in Rogers. "I retrieved it and I voted and that's it." He laughed at himself for the flub, which he said cost him maybe a 10-minute drive to his office and back. http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2014/05/20/oops-voter-id-law-may-have-briefly-tripped-up-law-advocate-asa-hutchinson And, what did he do? He went and got his ID, went back and voted. A supporter of voter ID not making a big deal out of forgetting his ID when he went to vote, and then following the rules.

joether -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/24/2014 8:41:21 AM)
Why should I have to show my photo ID? I state who I am and where I live. This is the United States of America that has a legal law known as the US Constitution. Within this document, there exists an amendment, the 4th and 5th. The 4th protects the citizen from unreasonable searches and seizures from the government....UNLESS...there is probable cause of wrong. The 5th amendment protects a citizen from being forced to incriminate themselves. Together, means someone external to myself, would have to prove accusation that one of the following might not be true: A ) I am not who I state I am B ) I do not live where I state I live C ) A combination of both A & B above Its not just enough to say "That person is not Mr. Jones", but must show EVIDENCE to an officer of the law (i.e. a police officer). This evidence could take several forms, but a photograph of some type would be most helpful. The police officer could run a search on such an individual to obtain information like 'photo', 'residence' and 'other legal information'. They are not required to share that information with the accuser or the accused (as per the 4th amendment again). Most officers in Massachusetts have access to smart phones that have an APP for the Registry of Motor Vehicles and State ID Check (1). All they have to do is plug in any relevant information they have (in this case, what the accuser states might be true). Notice I did not say the accused needs to state (as per the 5th amendment). The accused can stay silent the whole time, while the accuser is forced to provide the evidence. Since in the USA, one is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. The officer, after obtaining the information, could check with what the defendant originally stated for accuracy. If everything checks out, the officer apologizes to the citizen for wasting their time. If something does not, does not automatically mean the person is guilty of wrong doing. They could just be at the wrong polling location. In my town, there exists a street were the odd number houses go to one station and the even another. Could be the accent of the accused (not everyone in this nation speaks perfect, American-English). I never have had to show my ID for voting. Voter ID has not been shown to be on any level or scale that conservative, libertarians, Republicans and Tea Party accuse. The evidence of Voter ID fraud is so low as to not be relevant to the final outcomes of state and federal elections. People did ACTUAL research and journalism on the issue. 2,068 alleged fraud cases since 2000. And that's from ACROSS THE NATION, not just one polling station. Of that, this group found only 10 cases (the number that comes after 9 but before 11) in which Voter ID laws would have helped. And those that support Voter ID laws will say that those 10 could have tipped the scales of the vote in state and federal elections? Do any of these people have a clue just how stupid they look? (1) When one REGISTERS to vote in my town, they are required to show a photo ID as per the verification process. And they simply check the photo to the person registering to vote. They then note which document for a photo ID they were given. If there is a problem, the police officer can contact the town government (which is open during polling hours) to verify which photo document was initially given.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/24/2014 12:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Why should I have to show my photo ID? I state who I am and where I live. This is the United States of America that has a legal law known as the US Constitution. Within this document, there exists an amendment, the 4th and 5th. The 4th protects the citizen from unreasonable searches and seizures from the government....UNLESS...there is probable cause of wrong. The 5th amendment protects a citizen from being forced to incriminate themselves. Together, means someone external to myself, would have to prove accusation that one of the following might not be true: A ) I am not who I state I am B ) I do not live where I state I live C ) A combination of both A & B above Its not just enough to say "That person is not Mr. Jones", but must show EVIDENCE to an officer of the law (i.e. a police officer). This evidence could take several forms, but a photograph of some type would be most helpful. The police officer could run a search on such an individual to obtain information like 'photo', 'residence' and 'other legal information'. They are not required to share that information with the accuser or the accused (as per the 4th amendment again). Most officers in Massachusetts have access to smart phones that have an APP for the Registry of Motor Vehicles and State ID Check (1). All they have to do is plug in any relevant information they have (in this case, what the accuser states might be true). Notice I did not say the accused needs to state (as per the 5th amendment). The accused can stay silent the whole time, while the accuser is forced to provide the evidence. Since in the USA, one is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. The officer, after obtaining the information, could check with what the defendant originally stated for accuracy. If everything checks out, the officer apologizes to the citizen for wasting their time. If something does not, does not automatically mean the person is guilty of wrong doing. They could just be at the wrong polling location. In my town, there exists a street were the odd number houses go to one station and the even another. Could be the accent of the accused (not everyone in this nation speaks perfect, American-English). Certainly sounds quite easy. All we have to do is have pictures with everyone we know, just in case. I'll start filling up my "Citizen scrapbook"... quote: (1) When one REGISTERS to vote in my town, they are required to show a photo ID as per the verification process. And they simply check the photo to the person registering to vote. They then note which document for a photo ID they were given. If there is a problem, the police officer can contact the town government (which is open during polling hours) to verify which photo document was initially given. On your voter rolls, is there a picture of the person registered? If there isn't, how does a pollworker know that the person attempting to vote is the person registered?

joether -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/24/2014 11:51:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri On your voter rolls, is there a picture of the person registered? If there isn't, how does a pollworker know that the person attempting to vote is the person registered? Nope, only 'Name' and 'Address' in the polling station. The person doesn't know whom is standing before them; that's why its called the 4th amendment! Since I haven't broken any laws, the government has no grounds to search my person for any identification. The penalty for voter fraud is pretty hefty and not profitable enough to risk it. Why would Republican/Tea Party push for a set of voting laws, whom effect those people most likely to vote Democrat? Can you say 'Conflict of Interest'?

BitYakin -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 1:42:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri On your voter rolls, is there a picture of the person registered? If there isn't, how does a pollworker know that the person attempting to vote is the person registered? Nope, only 'Name' and 'Address' in the polling station. The person doesn't know whom is standing before them; that's why its called the 4th amendment! Since I haven't broken any laws, the government has no grounds to search my person for any identification. The penalty for voter fraud is pretty hefty and not profitable enough to risk it. Why would Republican/Tea Party push for a set of voting laws, whom effect those people most likely to vote Democrat? Can you say 'Conflict of Interest'? tell ya what, next time you are driving down the street and a cop pulls ya over and asks for your DL, tell him you are NOT REQUIRED to PROVE ANYTHING TO HIM and see what happens now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo now you might say well driving is a STATE thing subject to state laws, but we all know the CONSITUTION TRUMPS ALL STATE AND LOCAL LAWS, and you say the CONSTITUTION says you DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE... sorry dude you argument has ALOT OF HOLES IN IT...

DomKen -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 9:11:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri On your voter rolls, is there a picture of the person registered? If there isn't, how does a pollworker know that the person attempting to vote is the person registered? Nope, only 'Name' and 'Address' in the polling station. The person doesn't know whom is standing before them; that's why its called the 4th amendment! Since I haven't broken any laws, the government has no grounds to search my person for any identification. The penalty for voter fraud is pretty hefty and not profitable enough to risk it. Why would Republican/Tea Party push for a set of voting laws, whom effect those people most likely to vote Democrat? Can you say 'Conflict of Interest'? tell ya what, next time you are driving down the street and a cop pulls ya over and asks for your DL, tell him you are NOT REQUIRED to PROVE ANYTHING TO HIM and see what happens now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo now you might say well driving is a STATE thing subject to state laws, but we all know the CONSITUTION TRUMPS ALL STATE AND LOCAL LAWS, and you say the CONSTITUTION says you DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE... sorry dude you argument has ALOT OF HOLES IN IT... No, it does not. Your brain on the other hand apparently resembles Swiss cheese. BTW all caps does not make your bad argument any better.

joether -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 9:44:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin tell ya what, next time you are driving down the street and a cop pulls ya over and asks for your DL, tell him you are NOT REQUIRED to PROVE ANYTHING TO HIM and see what happens The first thing I ask when pulled over: "Hello officer, why am I pulled over?" And the officer, by law, must give a decent reason. He can ask for a driver's license, and I can give it. That establishes a legal right to the roadway (provided its current). I do not have to prove anything; that's why we have the 5th amendment. I am allowed to challenge the officer's ticket/arrest in court (under the 1st amendment). The reason I would show a Driver's License to a police officer is that he may very well have probable cause....and....being less of an asshole generally helps avoid problems. quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo HOWEVER....when voting, I am not being accused of a crime. That is the big difference here. The 4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I consider being required to show a photo ID while performing my civil duty to be unreasonable. As I stated above, there is enough technology for a police officer to check the information on a smartphone to verify the details. A 'Name' and 'Address' is enough information to obtain my legal information in the Registry of Motor Vehicles for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The officer would just look at the information, then to myself, then hand me a ballot and apologize for wasting my time. quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin now you might say well driving is a STATE thing subject to state laws, but we all know the CONSITUTION TRUMPS ALL STATE AND LOCAL LAWS, and you say the CONSTITUTION says you DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING TO ANYONE... Driving laws are a whole different beast to voting laws. I would think at the very least you could tell the most basic ideas in both? A police officer can NOT check your 'papers' without PROBABLE CAUSE. You really need to read up on Probable Cause, Here, Here, and Here. A Google search can provide many more examples. In each example of probable cause, its based on the assumption that the police officer or other government group believes some sort of crime has been committed by the person. When you walk into a polling station, you are not automatically given suspicion of breaking a law. Therefore, the government (as per the 4th) can not search you. quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin sorry dude you argument has ALOT OF HOLES IN IT... This coming from a guy that doesn't understand his rights as a US Citizen....

DesideriScuri -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 11:58:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo HOWEVER....when voting, I am not being accused of a crime. That is the big difference here. The 4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I consider being required to show a photo ID while performing my civil duty to be unreasonable. As I stated above, there is enough technology for a police officer to check the information on a smartphone to verify the details. A 'Name' and 'Address' is enough information to obtain my legal information in the Registry of Motor Vehicles for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The officer would just look at the information, then to myself, then hand me a ballot and apologize for wasting my time. There is the crux of the matter. Not everyone agrees that having to show a picture ID verifying you are who you say you are is unreasonable when it comes to a Citizen's right to vote.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 1:09:31 PM)
I just don't see what the big deal is with showing that yes, you are who you claim to be. There's very little that you can do these days without showing ID. Can't board a plane. Can't write a check. Can't open a bank account. Buy cigarettes or alcohol. Rent a car. But for some reason, when someone is about to cast their vote, we should just say yeah sure, we'll take your word for it.

DomKen -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 2:34:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo HOWEVER....when voting, I am not being accused of a crime. That is the big difference here. The 4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I consider being required to show a photo ID while performing my civil duty to be unreasonable. As I stated above, there is enough technology for a police officer to check the information on a smartphone to verify the details. A 'Name' and 'Address' is enough information to obtain my legal information in the Registry of Motor Vehicles for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The officer would just look at the information, then to myself, then hand me a ballot and apologize for wasting my time. There is the crux of the matter. Not everyone agrees that having to show a picture ID verifying you are who you say you are is unreasonable when it comes to a Citizen's right to vote. Too bad. The US Constitution and a whole bunch of court rulings says it is.

cloudboy -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 2:46:35 PM)
Nobody's ever been able to push reason into his head -- but your post was beautifully written and I totally appreciate its eloquence and logic.

cloudboy -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 2:48:56 PM)
When you can't see things from your own, common sense point of view -- it is best to read up about it. That's what I did. After you read up on the facts -- it's hard to support the bullshit behind voter ID laws.

ChristheBoy -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 3:26:43 PM)
I think you are all a bunch of idiots those that want to vote without ID. 4th and 5th amendment protect you from unlawful search and seizures. Asking someone to identify themselves in order to participate in the most important part of a democracy, i.e. the voting, is not a search or a seizure. You can not rent a video from the video store without ID to protect both the store from theft and the client from being charged for items stolen under his account. Like if I Chris, walked into a video store and said ''hi I'm bob, I want to rent this video'', bob would later be charged for a non returned video. I can just imagine one of you non-ID nuts having an insane fit if you went to vote and the person told you 'according to our records you voted an hour ago. You say who was he, how come you let him vote in my place, and they'd answer ''well he said he was you'' But yes I guess turning the issue into a republican versus Democrat issue is more important than protecting your ownership of your own personal vote. By the way, requesting ID for voting, is not searching or seizing you (for you paranoid idiots) it is about making sure your vote is protected and held for YOU to make that X in front of your choice, and making sure no one else usurps YOUR right to vote. Someone made a remark that only a few thousand issues ever really did arise over the entire nation so why bother. Well if you believe that protecting the integrity of a video store rental is more important than the integrity of the democratic process, well I guess that's your right.

dcnovice -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/25/2014 3:47:28 PM)
quote: Someone made a remark that only a few thousand issues ever really did arise over the entire nation so why bother. Well if you believe that protecting the integrity of a video store rental is more important than the integrity of the democratic process, well I guess that's your right. [image]http://loveforlife.com.au/files/strawman2.jpg[/image]

GreedyTop -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/26/2014 1:09:54 AM)
Have I mentioned how much I love you, DC? hugs

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/26/2014 1:26:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Someone made a remark that only a few thousand issues ever really did arise over the entire nation so why bother. Well if you believe that protecting the integrity of a video store rental is more important than the integrity of the democratic process, well I guess that's your right. [image]http://loveforlife.com.au/files/strawman2.jpg[/image] So it's a strawman argument to ask why you need an ID to do damn near anything else important, and even a lot of things that aren't important at all, but not to cast your vote?

joether -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/26/2014 4:48:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: joether quote: ORIGINAL: BitYakin now you might say well I was DRIVING so I am required to show I am legal to drive, but that same argument holds for voting, you ARE VOTING sooooo HOWEVER....when voting, I am not being accused of a crime. That is the big difference here. The 4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." I consider being required to show a photo ID while performing my civil duty to be unreasonable. As I stated above, there is enough technology for a police officer to check the information on a smartphone to verify the details. A 'Name' and 'Address' is enough information to obtain my legal information in the Registry of Motor Vehicles for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. The officer would just look at the information, then to myself, then hand me a ballot and apologize for wasting my time. There is the crux of the matter. Not everyone agrees that having to show a picture ID verifying you are who you say you are is unreasonable when it comes to a Citizen's right to vote. I live in an area where the bartenders HAVE to spot the fake IDs that come through. Boston, MA *IS* a college town. With 146 universities and colleges in the area, there are PLENTY of people with fake IDs. And from that, those that will make them. Now imagine out in less 'civilized' parts of the country. How good is the average poll worker in spotting a REALLY good fake ID? This is where your entire 'argument' rests. That all those poll workers could spot the numerous fake IDs from the real articles. So, if the IDs can be faked, we are back to square one here. Which is, that voter fraud is no bigger of a threat then it was before.... ...practically non-existent. An that's been proven as fact!

joether -> RE: Oops. Voter ID advocate Asa Hutchinson forgets Voter ID at polls (5/26/2014 5:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted I just don't see what the big deal is with showing that yes, you are who you claim to be. There's very little that you can do these days without showing ID. Can't board a plane. Can't write a check. Can't open a bank account. Buy cigarettes or alcohol. Rent a car. But for some reason, when someone is about to cast their vote, we should just say yeah sure, we'll take your word for it. Boarding a plane is NOT the Government DIRECTLY ORDERING you to show a photo ID. Writing a check to the grocery store is NOT the Government DIRECTLY ORDERING you to show a photo ID. Opening/Closing a Bank Account is NOT the Government DIRECTLY ORDERING you to show a photo ID. Buying Cigarettes and/or Alcohol is NOT the Government DIRECTLY ORDERING you to show a photo ID. Each of these are entities that are NOT part of government. The 4th amendment protects YOU from the GOVERNMENTS DIRECT SEARCHING. Which is why the police officer can not just enter your house to check your gun rack in your garage. BUT, if you had an open garage door while selling stuff in a garage sale, he could. Each of the amendments have exceptions. The 4th is no different. Those security guards at the stadium doing pat downs? They can do it, because they are NOT the GOVERNMENT. Police Officers can NOT pat you down, without PROBABLE CAUSE. The polling place....IS....A...GOVERNMENT....ENTITY. Therefore, the 4th amendment.....APPLIES. The poll workers can NOT ask/demand to see your photo ID, since that would violate the 4th amendment...DIRECTLY. Do you understand 'Probable Cause? Its directly tied to the idea of some wrong being performed. Is it a crime to vote? Your answer...HAS...to be 'yes'; otherwise your argument has no legal leg to stand upon. Are you accused of serious crimes when you vote? What fucked up state do you live in?

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