RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 8:01:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Thanks, Level. My opinions aren't always right (much as I'd like them to be, heh) and sometimes I hardly know what I'm talking about (don't tell anyone that when I'm Queen), but I think there are a lot of questions worth asking about problems such as the one discussed in this thread. If the answers were simple, I doubt we'd still have the problem. Then again, with both political parties going at each other like they do, maybe we would. I think your contribution to this discussion was very valuable, and I admire your ability to be fact-based in support of your position. There was a lot of "talk down to the kids" and "call the old men grumpy" going on in this thread. I know, I did some of it. [;)] From my perspective, when you weighed in, you helped bring things back sanity. The answer may be some sort of compromise. Having heard the issues from the people in California, it's pretty clear that they have a completely different problem from those in Texas. In the RGV (Rio Grande Valley, for those that don't know), we have an economy this is absolutely dependent on low income workers, and yet there is almost no unemployment down there. At the risk of sounding like a snob (never stopped me before) the only people down there that don't have jobs, are the ones that don't want jobs. If we kicked out the illegals, there isn't anyone to fill that void. I'm told (although I have no supporting data) that the illegals working down there are actually treated pretty well, because they want the word to get around, and more to come over. In our instance, I don't think being hard on American companies that are using these people, is a strong position. Yes, they are breaking the law, but the alternative is going bankrupt. The law as constructed, at least in this area, is completely flawed. Some think a work permit might be helpful (I think meatcleaver suggested this) but supposedly, this wouldn't be good enough, as the main draw for these people is entry into the land of opportunity, where they have a chance to make a better life. What do you want to get that they have different problems in Arizona and New Mexico.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 8:10:46 AM)
Thank you, Caitlyn. It is easy to get "emotional" about such a passionate subject. I do contend that each state suffers a different problem or, consequence may be a better word. That is why I am a supporter of letting the states decide what is right for them, as opposed to the Feds coming in and deciding for us. California needed help with its border problem for years, and as I understand it, could not get the Federal funding it needed as assistance. It's been awhile since I had my finger on the pulse of the problenm - this past year has been one that carried me away from focusing on societal and political issues, due to circumstances. This thread made me start thinking about it again - so great job to the OP!! Caitlyn I can see now where you are coming from, re: the economy you speak of. This discussion has been enlightening, in many ways. It's why I love such discourse. When people can master the enormous challenge of staying rational and open, we can learn a great deal. Thank you for your contribution as well. I'll walk away from this thread with more than I knew coming into it, and that can only be a good thing. :)

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 10:24:05 AM)
quote: we have an economy this is absolutely dependent on low income workers, and yet there is almost no unemployment down there. At the risk of sounding like a snob (never stopped me before) the only people down there that don't have jobs, are the ones that don't want jobs. If we kicked out the illegals, there isn't anyone to fill that void. I'm told (although I have no supporting data) that the illegals working down there are actually treated pretty well, because they want the word to get around, and more to come over. In our instance, I don't think being hard on American companies that are using these people, is a strong position. Yes, they are breaking the law, but the alternative is going bankrupt. caitlyn, Do you truly believe what you posted? The influx of workers in the early 1900's from the south to northern states of industry was the result of their being jobs. Currently there is major influx of construction workers to the Los Vegas area as a result of the building boom. If RGV needs "unskilled" workers it should be the destination of every unemployed "unskilled" US worker. Why isn't it? Because the local RGV companies don't have to hire US Citizens and pay them minimum wage as long as they can get away with breaking the law by hiring workers in the US illegally. Why is the alternative bankruptcy? If they have a product desirable and marketable it will be purchased. If the price it's currently selling for is artificially low because it's being manufactured, processed, or harvested due to illegal workers being exploited, and working for an illegal wage; the price should be adjusted accordingly to consider that fact. Enforcing the laws against employers of illegal workers throughout the nation won't require assumption of a level playing field, a level playing field will be a fact. There will be a direct macro consequence of this initiative. All the wages in the US will go up. There will be a "trickle-up" effect. Of course so will prices. The result will be neutral. I suspect it will cause a major inflationary environment at first when these wages are passed onto the consumers. But there is another aspect that should be positive. Currently the companies are benefiting from two fronts. Illegal workers get paid less keeping the company's cost down. The company also isn't paying their appropriate percentage of their federal wage tax. The company isn't forwarding the appropriate income tax withholding, and it's doubtful that Social Security is getting what should be sent to them for the illegal workers. More tax dollars would go to the local, state, and federal government. Prosecution of employers of illegal aliens may be the only thing needed to balance the budget and the social security fund. On the private sector, companies with illegal workers don't incur any employee associated costs such as worker's compensation insurance, and employee health coverage. As a businessman and owner, if I had could ignore these costs my personal and corporate "bottom line" would increase by 40% conservatively. The "mothers and fathers Italian Association" glamorized by Hollywood may be benevolent, hard working, good family men who provided a service for people wanting/needing it. They may kill each other, but they didn't hurt you unless you effected their world. They were/are still criminals. So are employers of illegal workers.

Moloch -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 10:32:33 AM)
Ok I dont know why people are supporting illegal immigration, maybe they are on welfare or maybe their mommy and daddy pay their credit cards. But right now down south every honest construction and contractor buisness/company/individual are loosing profit margin or going broke because other people are hiring uncertifed unqualified workers for much less money. I know a good amount of contractors down in Texas that are hurting pretty bad because they are honest people and pay their taxes and hire LEGAL workers, and do things HONESTLY.

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 10:41:07 AM)
quote: They were/are still criminals. So are employers of illegal workers Employers who would remain criminals if the supply of illegal workers dried up. Thos employers would still maximze their bottom line by shorting any employees, and evading worker's comp safety regs, overtime laws, etc.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 11:24:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: They were/are still criminals. So are employers of illegal workers Employers who would remain criminals if the supply of illegal workers dried up. Thos employers would still maximze their bottom line by shorting any employees, and evading worker's comp safety regs, overtime laws, etc. Totally off topic and irrelevant to the OP; but based on this report maybe it all evens out. quote: Nearly 29 percent percent of company time in America is unproductive, according to the results of a new study by management consulting firm, Proudfoot Consulting. The estimated cost of poor productivity in the U.S. is $598 billion and U.S. companies "lose" the equivalent of 33.5 days per worker, per year, the productivity study found. Source: http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2006/07/19/70586.htm

caitlyn -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 12:34:49 PM)
I live with a foster father, that has real, first hand information about this issue, as it relates to the RGV in South Texas. If you don't mind, I'll go ahead and trust the factual information he has to give, rather then the opinion you expressed after the pedantic opening. Question for you: Our President, who is from Texas, seems to think some workable solution is needed. The vast majority of the Texas delegation to the United States Congress, from both parties, seems feel the same way, as does our Moderate Republican Governor and a State legislature that is pretty much split down the middle. Now, is every single one of them on the take from big business ... or could you even consider for a minute that people living here, might know the reality of this issue as it relates to people living here?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 12:53:48 PM)
quote: The vast majority of the Texas delegation to the United States Congress, from both parties, seems feel the same way, as does our Moderate Republican Governor and a State legislature that is pretty much split down the middle. Now, is every single one of them on the take from big business Yes, if you define "on the take" as being responsive to PACs and lobby groups. Edited to add: quote: I'll go ahead and trust the factual information he has to give, rather then the opinion you expressed after the pedantic opening. The information you are getting may or may not be "factual". The fact that hiring illegal workers is criminal is a statement of fact; regardless if the law is enforced.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 1:24:33 PM)
The late Congressman Sonny Bono when asked about his thoughts on illegal immigration replied; "What's there to think about, it's illegal."

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 1:45:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The late Congressman Sonny Bono when asked about his thoughts on illegal immigration replied; "What's there to think about, it's illegal." A good political retort but hardly a thought out solution to a big problem. There are 11 million illegals. Jailing or deporting them is just not going to happen.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 2:00:19 PM)
Meat, the solution is to secure that Mexican border just as tight as we've secured S. Korea's border, enforce our laws on employing them (A Federal Felony) and deportation. Of course you can't deport 11 million people in a month! But over a period of ten to twenty years it could very easily be done gradually. They didn't all get here in one month did they? That's the job. If anyone in Washington isn't up to that job they need to resign and go out into the DPS. (The Dreaded Private Sector)

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 2:06:45 PM)
quote: Of course you can't deport 11 million people in a month! Popeye, Don't surrender on this issue. It can be done. It should be done at the expense of the employers who get caught having illegal workers. Do it and I guarantee that that opportunity for illegal workers will dry up. When the work dries up the traffic jam will be at the US border exit instead of the entry. It's a cop out and a rationalization for amnesty to say something can't be done. That should only be said when all other options have been tried.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 2:32:41 PM)
Merc, I'm retired military, "surrender" isn't a word in my vocabulary. And when I call my congressman and senators about this I tell them; "Look, I'm not asking you to do something about this anymore, now I'm telling you to do something about it."

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 10:26:53 AM)
Oh, and as for the economy not being able to function without so many low payed workers, I didn't realise that we had a shortage of high school dropouts to do those jobs. I hear California is loaded with them.

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 10:34:33 AM)
I've just realised. The land belongs to no one but those that possess it so if outsiders who come in and take land and resources its OK. Isn't that what America has been telling the Palastinians? I find it quite startling that this irony has not been noticed yet. Sorry for going off topic. I just couldn't resist it.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 12:02:03 PM)
Meat, thankfully there are more than 300 million firearms in the hands of American Citizens. I'm sorry to go off topic as well.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 12:03:07 PM)
And I'm thankful that apples don't taste or look like oranges.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 12:06:37 PM)
LOL@ Merc!

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 1:24:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Oh, and as for the economy not being able to function without so many low payed workers, I didn't realise that we had a shortage of high school dropouts to do those jobs. I hear California is loaded with them. You've posted this elsewhere. When Food Lion was exposed for making high school kids work off the clock, etc. how many of those kids were illegals? Crooked employers do crooked things, no matter who is in the workforce.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/20/2006 2:53:22 PM)
Ah! Now there's a good example of "circular logic!"

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