RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans

RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 2:16:09 PM)
Alum, it's an absolute failure on the part of our govt! What the hell are we PAYING those people for?

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 2:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Alum, in the opening post stating "Anti-Immigrant " feelings in the country I don't see any of that. It's "Anti_illegal Aliens" feelings that I see. People are finally waking up to the fact that the U.S. is being invaded by third world countries. And they don't like it one bit! I've talked to my Congressman's staffers about it (Rep. Henry Brown R-S.C.) and they say they get calls, letters, e-mails, faxes every single day about it. As for your "grandfather" post above go read the 14th Amendment. It was incorporated to give "full" Citizenship to slaves after the Civil War, not to grant U.S. Citizenship to the children of illegal aliens. It obviously needs to be clarified! If millions of lawyers were sneaking into this country from India and opening Law Offices and driving down Attourney's fees I don't think too much time would elapse before the people who represent us in Washington put a screaching halt to it! Circular logic...you are defining legal citizens as illegal aliens through a tortured misreading of the Constitution, and then announcing that the 'anti' sentiments only apply to illegal aliens....whom you have redefined to include legal residents. And are you seriously suggesting that migrant fruit pickers would be making 6 figure incomes like attorneys or vice versa, if they weren't 'illegal'?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 2:24:40 PM)
quote: 'Illegal' can just as easily refer to someone here illegally, who is running drugs or robbing banks instead of being part of the workforce under discussion... Correct it's applicable in both instances. When an employee accepts a job from an employer exploitation ends. If you are referring to employees hiring illegals we again are in agreement and if you read any of my previous posts on the issue you'll find that I believe the focus of any enforcement should be pointed at the employer. It's not a separate issue because if there is "exploitation" it's the employees who must choose to take a below value salary because of the downward salary pressure created by the illegal workers. Eliminate the illegal workers and they won't be exploited and neither will the employees with legal status. The only negative impact will be at the employer level. How can you keep those issues separate and why would you oppose such an obvious solution?

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 2:24:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado And are you seriously suggesting that migrant fruit pickers would be making 6 figure incomes like attorneys or vice versa, if they weren't 'illegal'? Legal or illegal hasn't much to do with their wages, or at least it didn't. My father-in-law's entire family - his father and all 11 children in the family - were fruit pickers in California, in the 30s and 40s. They made little money and lived in "housing" provided by the farmers. Fortunately for them, they were ultimately hired by the very kind owners of several orchards, and were treated quite well, but they didn't start off so fortunately, and they went through the excrutiatingly legal process at the the time to get here.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 3:18:19 PM)
Alum, "circular logic?" I don't know about you but when I went to school in the 1960's in Civics class we discussed the 14th Amendment which was I believe incorporated in 1868 I believe to give full citizenship to black slaves. I hardly see how pointing out how the illegal aliens are exploiting our laws could be considered "circular logic." That Amendment was made specifically to grant black slaves full Citizenship. Alum, ever hear of convoluted logic?

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 3:49:59 PM)
Are you saying that it because it only mentions one group, it somehow takes away citizenship from some of those born here who are not in that particualr group? Again, you are making up your own definition of illegal aliens, when what is being discussed is legal migrant workers.

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 3:54:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: 'Illegal' can just as easily refer to someone here illegally, who is running drugs or robbing banks instead of being part of the workforce under discussion... Correct it's applicable in both instances. When an employee accepts a job from an employer exploitation ends. If you are referring to employees hiring illegals we again are in agreement and if you read any of my previous posts on the issue you'll find that I believe the focus of any enforcement should be pointed at the employer. It's not a separate issue because if there is "exploitation" it's the employees who must choose to take a below value salary because of the downward salary pressure created by the illegal workers. Eliminate the illegal workers and they won't be exploited and neither will the employees with legal status. The only negative impact will be at the employer level. How can you keep those issues separate and why would you oppose such an obvious solution? Because it is a too obvious solution that looks good on paper, and underestimates reality. It is predicated on overly simplistic notions such as 'no exploitation possible' of legal workers. If that were the case,I wouldn't be making an issue of it. Legal migrant workers are exploited, to maximize profits...happens all the time. When Tricon finally agreed to pay their tomato pickers more money, it certainly wasn't because all the illegal ones had left.

popeye1250 -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 4:00:29 PM)
Alum, I have no problem with "Legal Workers" in this country. But I do like most Americans have a problem with Illegal Aliens! Last year the country of Ireland had a vote on Automatic Citizenship by Birth. They put it on the ballot and let the Irish People vote on it and it cameout 80% to 20% against. Unless both parents are in Ireland Legally any children that they have are not Irish Citizens. And in case you've never been there Ireland is a very "Liberal" country. I'm not aware of any country in Europe where the children of people there illegally would become citizens. Anyone know? One thing for sure, unless the people in Washington start tightening up on this stuff there's going to be a LOT of new faces in the House and Senate in the next three elections!

Alumbrado -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 5:12:17 PM)
Ireland liberal? LOL!.....thanks for making my day.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 6:19:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger Merc.... If she had yours and my property tax bills.... and then realized that you don't get very much for whatcha pay, her reality would change instantly.[8D] JMHO - R I do not know who the "she" is that you are referring to, but since I am in the compilation of quotes you referenced, I will simply say I do own my own home (I'm just not living in it right now) and I do pay property taxes in California. Fortunately my house is on County property so I don't have all the city taxes in addition to the state taxes, nor do I live in a Mello Roos area. Having owned three vehicles at the time, I was relieved when Arnold circumvented our previous leaders plans to triple our auto registration. Nah…. You were not ‘’she’’ lol I had a good notion after reading a few of your posts in the thread that you were indeed a property owner based on your level of concern. You are very aware then that many times when they need additional funding for shortfalls in budgets and infrastructure improvements in your schools and hospitals they float different types of ''general obligation'' bonds that paid for by additional levies in our property taxes. It seems very unfair to me that a large part of the burden is placed on specific segments of the population. What if that was changed to where everyone had to pay say thousand bucks, whether they were producing or not. – I’d bet a whole lota cash perceptions would change very quickly. - R

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 6:31:43 PM)
Well then you're talking about a flat tax, and that would put too many lawyers and accountants out of business (sorry Master, lol). The issue of bonds is a different subject but yes, it does seem that many people think it is free money when it isn't. The trouble is, there is no accounting for where the money goes. How about a statement each quarter, of a breakdown of how bond money was spent? How many times have we later heard that it went to the General Fund? Money for schools ends up going to administrators and not to the actual schools. Money for infrastructure goes to the General Fund. Etc. Rant rant rant. I need to rule the world...mwaaahahahahaha... You know what the real tragedy is? Look around at some of those third world countries. Their government offices are pristine. There is money there; their leaders eat good food and are not suffering. But there are corrupt governments who let their people suffer. If you think about it, it is a tragedy to think of the need to flee your own country to begin with. We take for granted out good we have it.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 8:35:59 PM)
quote: Well then you're talking about a flat tax, and that would put too many lawyers and accountants out of business (sorry Master, lol) HAR! That’s propaganda of the worst sort. Don't you dare believe that for a second! When there's no work... lawyers and accountants are notorious for making/dreaming-up new work. The Lawyers and ''lawyer educated'' run this country and they will never suffer from a lack of work quote: . The issue of bonds is a different subject but yes, it does seem that many people think it is free money when it isn't. The trouble is, there is no accounting for where the money goes. How about a statement each quarter, of a breakdown of how bond money was spent? How many times have we later heard that it went to the General Fund? Money for schools ends up going to administrators and not to the actual schools. Money for infrastructure goes to the General Fund. Etc. Rant rant rant. I need to rule the world...mwaaahahahahaha.. Definitely a different subject. What I was referring to though, is that many aspects of our infrastructure is being crippled /overburdened from the onrushing problem of illegal immigration, and it sure seems like a limited segment is being unfairly punished monetarily. And your idea with regard to an itemized statement is a good one.... but let me take it one step further. How bout we incorporate the statement with the systematic end of payroll tax withholding? In other words..... When its time to receive your payroll checks every two weeks or month, you receive the gross with no taxes or SSI taken out instead of the net. You then receive your itemized statement of generalized government expenditures, and then pay accordingly. The government would start with ''change fund'' of sorts and would be forced to operate in totally efficient manner by virtue of the population being in a true position of the ‘’pay master responsible for the funding. The net effect would be that each and every citizen would become more involved is the decision making process. It's my feeling right now that the power brokers currently in charge are very happy that most of the populace feels disempowered and stays ''uninvolved'' fading back into the woodwork. quote: You know what the real tragedy is? Look around at some of those third world countries. Their government offices are pristine. There is money there; their leaders eat good food and are not suffering. But there are corrupt governments who let their people suffer. If you think about it, it is a tragedy to think of the need to flee your own country to begin with. We take for granted out good we have it. Wholeheartedly agree and have said this many times. The way to truly change these conditions is force those people -- who live within the confines of such greedy/oppressive governments-- to become so miserable and downtrodden that the fighting spirit forced out of each and every single one of them and they opt for a revolution. We are actually doing a great injustice --to the rest of the population in those countries -- and acting in a complicit manner with those greedy governments by letting limited groupings come here. - R.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 10:23:10 PM)
Interesting idea, about the statements. But then taxes would go up to pay for processing [:D] And about forcing people to become miserable and downtrodden....well it's pretty rough to watch human suffering and it's not like the poor and downtrodden necessarily have the means or strength to rise up and fight. So what, then? Trade agreements that influence their governments to take care of their own people? The problem is, in my humble opinion, the powers that be are so busy arguing each other, nothing gets done. And so the problems continue. And people like us debate them on message boards.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 10:57:52 PM)
You know, I've seen you do this at least three times already when someone disagrees with you, and it's very annoying. You did it with me a few weeks ago when you pretended that I called you a racist (and then failed to apologize when it became clear that you misread what I had written). You did it yesterday with juliaoceania, and now you're doing it with ownedgirlie. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are fabricating lies about you. Seriously, Alumbrado, we have better things to do than concoct ways to besmirch your reputation. quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado But you knew that, you are (as I said), just being dishonest to derail the discussion into one of your keyboard commando tantrums, and focus all attention on you..

meatcleaver -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/18/2006 11:58:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Alum, I have no problem with "Legal Workers" in this country. But I do like most Americans have a problem with Illegal Aliens! Last year the country of Ireland had a vote on Automatic Citizenship by Birth. They put it on the ballot and let the Irish People vote on it and it cameout 80% to 20% against. Unless both parents are in Ireland Legally any children that they have are not Irish Citizens. And in case you've never been there Ireland is a very "Liberal" country. I'm not aware of any country in Europe where the children of people there illegally would become citizens. Anyone know? One thing for sure, unless the people in Washington start tightening up on this stuff there's going to be a LOT of new faces in the House and Senate in the next three elections! If you are born in Britain you have are automatically a citizen, which is why I believe Canada has a similar law, a direct inheritence. While Ireland as its population has got younger is becoming more liberal, it is hardly a liberal country. It denies women the right of abortion so 5,000 Irish women a year travel to England for an abortion. It still sees being Irish as a blood thing, like the Germans see being German. Not that liberal in an age when we most countries think blood line as an indication of being a member of that nation is nonsense. Which leaves Ireland with ironies of all ironies, in the company of Germany and Isreal as the only other two nations in this region that see bloodline as being a bona fide member of a nation.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 12:14:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Interesting idea, about the statements. But then taxes would go up to pay for processing See... didn't I tell you lawyers and accountants would never be out of a job ; } quote: And about forcing people to become miserable and downtrodden....well it's pretty rough to watch human suffering and it's not like the poor and downtrodden necessarily have the means or strength to rise up and fight. So what, then? I really don't think there would be as much bloodshed as most people think if the people came out in masses. If the people in Mexico rose up against the ruling elite, and the ruling elite used methods like they did in Tiananmen Square, people from within the United States would go down and join the fight. - R Edited to add : This has been an excellent thread.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 12:21:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster You know, I've seen you do this at least three times already when someone disagrees with you, and it's very annoying. You did it with me a few weeks ago when you pretended that I called you a racist (and then failed to apologize when it became clear that you misread what I had written). You did it yesterday with juliaoceania, and now you're doing it with ownedgirlie. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are fabricating lies about you. Seriously, Alumbrado, we have better things to do than concoct ways to besmirch your reputation. quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado But you knew that, you are (as I said), just being dishonest to derail the discussion into one of your keyboard commando tantrums, and focus all attention on you.. LAM I did actually misunderstand some of his statements. Some of his points I disagreed with, some I agreed with, and some I misunderstood. For those I misunderstood, I asked clarification to some. He could have corrected the misunderstanding, but chose to accuse me of malintent instead. It happens. Life goes on. My own communication is imperfect. All I can do is try to improve it with an open mind and hope I succeed in doing so. I reread my first posts to him, which were a bit testy. I wasn't feeling well today and I think that came across in my mood. Maybe I initiated a negativity in our exchange that could have been prevented. So I'll take part of the responsibility in this. Ah well, we're all fallible, right? The negativity was perpetuated by his accusations and went downhill. It's a typical example of a breakdown in communication.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 12:32:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger See... didn't I tell you lawyers and accountants would never be out of a job ; } Ha! Good point :) quote: I really don't think there would be as much bloodshed as most people think if the people came out in masses. If the people in Mexico rose up against the ruling elite, and the ruling elite used methods like they did in Tiananmen Square, people from within the United States would go down and join the fight. An interesting concept. quote: Edited to add : This has been an excellent thread. It made my day home from work less boring, for sure :) The discussion, for the most part, has been quite interesting on both sides of the coin.

Level -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 4:26:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Well then you're talking about a flat tax, and that would put too many lawyers and accountants out of business (sorry Master, lol). The issue of bonds is a different subject but yes, it does seem that many people think it is free money when it isn't. The trouble is, there is no accounting for where the money goes. How about a statement each quarter, of a breakdown of how bond money was spent? How many times have we later heard that it went to the General Fund? Money for schools ends up going to administrators and not to the actual schools. Money for infrastructure goes to the General Fund. Etc. Rant rant rant. *I need to rule the world...mwaaahahahahaha...* *Second time I've seen you say that..... checks your profile to make sure "switch" isn't on it somewhere [:-] You know what the real tragedy is? Look around at some of those third world countries. Their government offices are pristine. There is money there; their leaders eat good food and are not suffering. But there are corrupt governments who let their people suffer. If you think about it, it is a tragedy to think of the need to flee your own country to begin with. We take for granted out good we have it. True. Case in point is Africa; the problem isn't that there hasn't been enough money sent there, but corrupt governments there wasting and stealing the loot. Finally: I'm enjoying seeing your clear and concise thinking here in these type of threads.**

ownedgirlie -> RE: Blame Employers Not The Mexicans (7/19/2006 7:06:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level *Second time I've seen you say that..... checks your profile to make sure "switch" isn't on it somewhere [:-]** ~Crooks my finger at your and grins...heh heh heh~ quote: True. Case in point is Africa; the problem isn't that there hasn't been enough money sent there, but corrupt governments there wasting and stealing the loot. I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that post. I was thinking of something I heard about all the USA For Africa money not getting past the government's beaurocracy (their govt, not ours) but I couldn't actually find evidence of that so I didn't write it. All I know is, I sent money in back then and never got my sweatshirt... quote: Finally: I'm enjoying seeing your clear and concise thinking here in these type of threads. Thanks, Level. My opinions aren't always right (much as I'd like them to be, heh) and sometimes I hardly know what I'm talking about (don't tell anyone that when I'm Queen), but I think there are a lot of questions worth asking about problems such as the one discussed in this thread. If the answers were simple, I doubt we'd still have the problem. Then again, with both political parties going at each other like they do, maybe we would.

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