RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/7/2014 6:28:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Well, go with that then, if it makes you feel better.



I can tell you're misunderstanding me, are you misunderstanding Vincent *shrug* Ask him.

But I can say that you aren't following the principal of charity.



GotSteel -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/7/2014 6:33:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You really think you're smarter than I am?

Everyone thinks they are smarter than you...just as you think you are smarter than others. It is prety common...unless you are a moron.[8|]


Actually if I remember the study correctly idiots are the most likely to misunderstand their level of intelligence. It turns out that the attribute necessary to realize that you're an idiot is also the same attribute necessary not to be one.



Kirata -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/7/2014 7:08:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Actually if I remember the study correctly idiots are the most likely to misunderstand their level of intelligence. It turns out that the attribute necessary to realize that you're an idiot is also the same attribute necessary not to be one.

Yep, it's called the DK effect. [sm=applause.gif]

K.



Kirata -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/7/2014 10:40:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

He didn't claim that. But is was funny as hell watching you misinterpret what he said yet again. Thanks for the laugh.

You know how I always know when I'm in the right? When you rush in to the other guys defense.

Actually, it seems to be a general rule that the more people take a stand against you, the smarter you think you are.

What happened to your respect for a consensus? [:D]

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 12:51:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

He didn't claim that. But is was funny as hell watching you misinterpret what he said yet again. Thanks for the laugh.

You know how I always know when I'm in the right? When you rush in to the other guys defense.

Actually, it seems to be a general rule that the more people take a stand against you, the smarter you think you are.

What happened to your respect for a consensus? [:D]

K.



It's called the arrogance of the mediocre - third rate intelligences mindlessly parroting whatever the current orthodoxy is and shouting down any dissent in a manner reminiscent of Zionists screaming "anti-Semite" at any one who criticises Israel for any reason. Other tell tale signs include confusing orthodoxy for certainty (which has also been displayed frequently on this thread), and an absence of original thought on any level.

One of the few certainties in science is that anyone claiming 'scientific certainty' is invariably making an invalid claim. The standards of proof employed in science - risk analysis/probability, and consensus among the cognoscenti - do not lend themselves to claims of certainty. Scientific orthodoxies are (at best) the best available explanations, therefore not to be confused with facts or elevated into certainties.



thishereboi -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 2:51:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you were posturing about how brilliant you were and got called on it and that is all you got?

Has anyone ever told you that in addition to being reading challenged you have serious ego issues?

So I can add not very bright to arrogant and liar to the list of things I know about you. In the future don't try to claim to be smarter than everyone when you aren't.



He didn't claim that. But is was funny as hell watching you misinterpret what he said yet again. Thanks for the laugh.

You know how I always know when I'm in the right? When you rush in to the other guys defense.



Aww, isn't that cute. You think replying 12 hours after a post is rushing in. But thanks for clearing things up. I always wondered how you could think you were right when the facts go against what you say and now I know. But if it really bothers you that I defend him, maybe you should stop lying about him so much.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 6:21:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Well, go with that then, if it makes you feel better.



I can tell you're misunderstanding me, are you misunderstanding Vincent *shrug* Ask him.

But I can say that you aren't following the principal of charity.

You are under the impression that not accepting your baseline assumptions equals not understanding what they are. You're going to have to take a look at that yourself, because no one's going to be able to discuss it while you're convinced those assumptions as self-evident reality.



vincentML -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 6:58:53 AM)

FR

Musicmystery claims twenty contemporary Islamic scientists but is unable to propose even one independent Islamic contribution to modern science. He simply can't have it both ways: claiming 20 (pathetic number) Muslim scientists while admitting that Muslim countries abandoned experimental science. For lack of modern contribution he blames the Mongols and a change in government priorities, not religion. There have been no major contributions to science from the Muslim world since the 13th C. The Mongols are long gone. The one consistent influence throughout the intervening centuries has been Islam fundamentalism. It is understandable for Tyson to point the finger for lack of progress at Islamic religion because like Christian fundamentalism it fears modernity. For all the bullshit distractions and the ugly, foul mouth rant in this thread no one has provided a reasonable repudiation to Tyson's main point: religious fundamentalism destroyed Muslim science and religious fundamentalism could destroy Western science.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 7:25:36 AM)

Since you insist on the most myopic of readings, there's not much more to say, Bomb Boy. I gave you the history since the Mongols; you dismissed it. I gave you the change in focus in Islamic science and it's widening scope; you ignored it. You still can't wrap your head around the notion that if I don't research and list every scientist in the last 700 years, they didn't exist, and you dismiss as not contributing even the work of Nobel laureates in chemistry and physics. That alone, "pathetic" or not, demonstrates the falsity of your insistence that "there have been no major contributions to science from the Muslim world since the 13th C." Further, neither you nor Steel can explain how science flourished along with fundamentalism prior to the Mongol invasion (the Mongols certainly didn't impose fundamentalist Islam on their new subjects).

In short, there's a better explanation, a change in government focus, that continues to this day. And that shift in focus is not speculation in the U.S., but rather it's happening and has been happening now, with slashes in funding. I've well-documented all of this, but you just prance about with your fingers in your ears screaming "No! Tyson! Bombs! Sand! Mommy! He swore at me!" And your claim of not "even one independent Islamic contribution to modern science" is flatly false, as has already been demonstrated and recognized in the scientific community.

You're simply stubbornly wrong on this point, mistaking coincidence for causality. And damn unreasonable, as you simply ignore the counter-evidence in favor of your tantrum, hoping if you repeat it often enough, it will become true. And that is the equal of fundamentalist blindness, ironically.



thompsonx -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 7:35:08 AM)


ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I love that phenomenon: when X trots out his/her argument, one of the loons turns up to support it, and you can almost hear X wincing in embarrassment. There's damning by faint praise, and there's damning by getting the glowing praise of someone who has the reputation of being either a dimwit or a dribbling headbanger, or both. Fun! [:D]

Just saying. Carry on.

It is obvious that some people did not spend their time in public school smokin fags in the boys room.



Zonie63 -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 8:28:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

FR

Musicmystery claims twenty contemporary Islamic scientists but is unable to propose even one independent Islamic contribution to modern science. He simply can't have it both ways: claiming 20 (pathetic number) Muslim scientists while admitting that Muslim countries abandoned experimental science. For lack of modern contribution he blames the Mongols and a change in government priorities, not religion. There have been no major contributions to science from the Muslim world since the 13th C. The Mongols are long gone. The one consistent influence throughout the intervening centuries has been Islam fundamentalism. It is understandable for Tyson to point the finger for lack of progress at Islamic religion because like Christian fundamentalism it fears modernity. For all the bullshit distractions and the ugly, foul mouth rant in this thread no one has provided a reasonable rebuke to Tyson's main point: religious fundamentalism destroyed Muslim science and religious fundamentalism could destroy Western science.


I tend to agree with the main point put forth by Tyson, although trying to determine what exactly destroys science may be harder to pin down. The point has been made that there have been periods where science has flourished and co-existed with religion quite nicely, although religious fundamentalism seems to be the main trouble.

But what is "fundamentalism"? Isn't that kind of the same thing as saying "I'm right and you're wrong" (something we see a lot of in human interactions and disagreements, even outside of the topic of religion)? Doesn't the fundamentalist decide (all on his own) that he's smarter than everyone else and that only he has knowledge of the "true God"?

What is it that drives that kind of thinking, and how does it manage to gain traction and staying power with the masses? It can't be "religion" in and of itself, although it's possible that any belief system could be used by a fanatic claiming to be a "true believer."

What I also find interesting, at least looking at it from a religious viewpoint, it always seemed somewhat incongruous whenever a religious adherent would presume to set themselves up as "God's personal spokesperson" on Earth. How can someone claim with religious authority that math or science are the "devil's work" without also claiming to be a prophet with a personal connection and knowledge of what God is thinking?

In his lecture, Tyson also showed a billboard which had a message from "God." Would anyone seriously believe that God Himself rented that billboard and put that message on there? Or did some human being pay for that billboard and put that message up there, presuming to be "God"? From a religious point of view, doesn't it seem rather "blasphemous" for a human to presume to speak for God?

I've seen alternative views regarding religion and science, not so much religionists saying that science is factually "wrong" but that humans aren't supposed to know about it. Some science, such as harnessing the power of the atom, has shown itself to be quite dangerous, and there are some who might believe that we're messing in "God's domain" before humanity has reached a level of maturity and social development. (Ironically, even the most ardent religious fundamentalist would never reject science when it comes to developing better weapons and tools for maintaining tyranny. For that stuff, science is okay, but for anything else, it's the "devil's work.")



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 9:02:29 AM)

Both the YouTube poster and the OP are misrepresenting Tyson's point -- Naming Rights.

Even from the start, he lists accomplishments in the 20th century US. And the US led because of (1) emigration from war and oppression and (2) military funding and funding inspired by the arms race.

In short, it's not a rant against "erosion of progress" (as that progress wasn't "eroded") in the first place.




DomKen -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 9:15:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Both the YouTube poster and the OP are misrepresenting Tyson's point -- Naming Rights.

Even from the start, he lists accomplishments in the 20th century US. And the US led because of (1) emigration from war and oppression and (2) military funding and funding inspired by the arms race.

In short, it's not a rant against "erosion of progress" (as that progress wasn't "eroded") in the first place.

Progress has stopped here though. We didn't build the super collider. We stopped nearly all research on stem cells for 8 years. We've cut back funding on basic research to the bone (go to any research university and ask any traditional STEM department chair if he thinks it is a good time for a young person to try and get onto a tenure track). We've got members of the House Science Committee declaring that evolution is a "lie straight from the pit of hell."



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 9:33:39 AM)

And that's my point -- we've stopped funding science as we used to. . . and not strictly because it's "from . . . hell." We've slashed NASA's funding, for example -- is space a lie from hell?

More accurately, since Reagen, and increasing under Bush, certainly under this Congress, TAXES are a lie from hell, with no sense of the importance of INVESTMENT along with prudent fiscal policy (which the right also doesn't practice, continuing to borrow and spend instead, a trend started with Reagan and expanded under Bush, exemplified by Cheney's observation that "Reagan proved deficits don't matter.")

Here, y'all -- the overview of the decline in US science . . . note, it's all economic.

http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/the-quiet-decline-of-the-american-scientific-empire/u.s.-science-decline-funding-budget/c4s10171/#.U5SWLS8WeHE

Now, it could be argued that societies in economic decline sometimes turn toward fundamentalism. But notice that's reversing the cause and effect chain the OP wants to establish.

The arts, sciences, literature -- they flourish in good economic times, and in cultures that economically encourage those pursuits. And they slow in cultures that move priorities elsewhere.

In the US, we've sacrificed them not to fundamentalist demands, but on the altar of tax cuts.

And in the Islamic world, Tyson's note that one guy declared mathematics evil hasn't stopped the Muslim world from using it anyway.



dcnovice -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 11:30:13 AM)

FR

"The older I get the more I'm convinced that it's the purpose of
politicians and journalists to say the world is very simple,
whereas it's the purpose of historians to say, 'No! It's very complicated.'"

DAVID CANNADINE, HISTORIAN



DomKen -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 11:52:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And that's my point -- we've stopped funding science as we used to. . . and not strictly because it's "from . . . hell." We've slashed NASA's funding, for example -- is space a lie from hell?

More accurately, since Reagen, and increasing under Bush, certainly under this Congress, TAXES are a lie from hell, with no sense of the importance of INVESTMENT along with prudent fiscal policy (which the right also doesn't practice, continuing to borrow and spend instead, a trend started with Reagan and expanded under Bush, exemplified by Cheney's observation that "Reagan proved deficits don't matter.")

Here, y'all -- the overview of the decline in US science . . . note, it's all economic.

http://www.worldcrunch.com/tech-science/the-quiet-decline-of-the-american-scientific-empire/u.s.-science-decline-funding-budget/c4s10171/#.U5SWLS8WeHE

Now, it could be argued that societies in economic decline sometimes turn toward fundamentalism. But notice that's reversing the cause and effect chain the OP wants to establish.

The arts, sciences, literature -- they flourish in good economic times, and in cultures that economically encourage those pursuits. And they slow in cultures that move priorities elsewhere.

In the US, we've sacrificed them not to fundamentalist demands, but on the altar of tax cuts.

And in the Islamic world, Tyson's note that one guy declared mathematics evil hasn't stopped the Muslim world from using it anyway.

You're saying they're separate. They're not. It was never about tax cuts that was just the excuse. It was always about religion. During this period when they cut STEM research to the bone and basically destroyed our futures they kept right on buying every over priced unneeded weapon system out there.

You got it right, since Reagan. since the Christian fundamentalists gained power in the Republican party again. Before then The fundamentalists were out of power for a generation, since Sputnik, and the US had seen a rare peace time flourishing of the sciences. Then Reagan sold the soul of the Republican party to the religious right and we've lost the opportunity to build a real golden age. Just look at what that one generation of real investment has actually done, the entire solid state technology revolution plus biotech plus myriad other technologies (just look around at what was not even imaginable 25 years ago that is common place or already obsolete (fax machines?) today).



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 11:58:00 AM)

You say they're not. They are. You're cherry-picking one religious one and ignoring space, physics, and so forth.

Oh the fundies are about and active, to be sure. But if you killed them all off today, our science would still be suffering.

That's the difference between a pet issue and the actual causal force.

I suppose you could argue that tax cuts (all or the majority of them) are a religious matter. But I'd have to see that argument.

Yes, defunding gets used as an "ethical" weapon. But again, that's not driving the bulk of the cuts in science. A change in government focus is.



thompsonx -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 12:26:11 PM)

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Actually if I remember the study correctly idiots are the most likely to misunderstand their level of intelligence. It turns out that the attribute necessary to realize that you're an idiot is also the same attribute necessary not to be one.


In keeping with the anniversary I spoke with yosarian yesterday,about that very subject. I begged him to fly with me and he kept insisting I was an idiot with a death wish and he would not fly with me if god himself ordered him to.



DomKen -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 2:08:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You say they're not. They are. You're cherry-picking one religious one and ignoring space, physics, and so forth.

Oh the fundies are about and active, to be sure. But if you killed them all off today, our science would still be suffering.

That's the difference between a pet issue and the actual causal force.

I suppose you could argue that tax cuts (all or the majority of them) are a religious matter. But I'd have to see that argument.

Yes, defunding gets used as an "ethical" weapon. But again, that's not driving the bulk of the cuts in science. A change in government focus is.

No. You're simply ignoring the facts. We're still pouring money into DARPA. We're still spending who knows how much every year on DOD weapon systems. What we cut is basic research. The stuff that will have results in the future and makes the fundies nervous. That's the stuff that got gutted. The world is on the cusp of a biotech revolution and right up until W got elected we were poised to lead the way and then W shut down almost all US stem cell research and so all that biotech research went to Korea, Canada, Japan and Australia. Just look at CERN and think about what could have been if the super collider have ben built in Texas instead.



Musicmystery -> RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions (6/8/2014 2:15:55 PM)

I'm not ignoring anything. You're cherry picking what you choose to look at.

You're right (finally! about something!) about bio tech and CERN, but it's not the entire picture.

If you want to maintain fundies are a factor, I conceded that pages ago.

If you want to claim they are the main factor, you're wrong. All you've done here is break into categories (I addressed science funding overall, and "reducing funding" clearly means "we still fund some of it, but not as much as we used to").

But my principal point, that government priorities are the primary factor, stands here. Tax cuts are the main goal. Pushing their moral agenda is present too, yes, as long as they're in power. Obama has stressed the importance of funding science, but has faced a Congress reluctant to pay for anything.

There's nothing morally wrong with a super-collider, for example. We just didn't want to pay for it.



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