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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 3:08:53 PM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
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Consider that fanaticism stifles science; not a particular religion.

Progressive Islamic countries were a haven for learning while early Christians were burning libraries as Roman paganism. i.e. Destruction of the Library of Alexandria in 391 A.D.
A good example of fanatical fundamentalists destroying an empire can be found in the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The idea that "all that is worth knowing can be found in the Koran" killed social and scientific innovation.

The U.S. has its own religious fanatics undermining progress. Just Google for articles about "creation science" being mandatory in scientific curricula.

For my money, the religious fanatics belong in monasteries where they can't hurt the rest of us. <evil grin>

Fanaticism becomes evil, no matter the cause.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 381

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 3:19:33 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

And that fanaticism need not be religious to have that effect, e.g., fanatic about cutting taxes and defunding government.

(in reply to MercTech)

Post #: 382

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 4:23:34 PM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

But what is "fundamentalism"? Isn't that kind of the same thing as saying "I'm right and you're wrong" (something we see a lot of in human interactions and disagreements, even outside of the topic of religion)? Doesn't the fundamentalist decide (all on his own) that he's smarter than everyone else and that only he has knowledge of the "true God"?

Zonie, religious fundamentalism is grounded in the belief that in one form or another the God's literal truth is known to man. In Christianity the literal truth arises from the words of the Bible. Consequently, for those folk new scientific findings or theories that contradict the word of God as found in the Bible must be false and heretical. Revelation trumps Reason and Research. So, there is a well financed movement to install creationism and young earth doctrine in our public schools. More than half of Americans believe in creationism and in the imminent second coming of Jesus. The earth will be destroyed by a series of miracles beginning with the Rapture and ending with the triumph of Jesus in Jerusalem. Those of us who do not believe in this story will be condemned to hell fire for eternity. The Literalists are uber righteous and they include many politicians at all levels of government from school textbook committees to members of Congress. That is why for example support for an Israeli state is so strong among Americans. Its existence is necessary to the apocalyptic prophesy.

quote:

What is it that drives that kind of thinking, and how does it manage to gain traction and staying power with the masses? It can't be "religion" in and of itself, although it's possible that any belief system could be used by a fanatic claiming to be a "true believer."

Family tradition, unquestioning submission to authoritative pronouncements, lack of curiosity, need to identify with a greater power or group,etc.

quote:

What I also find interesting, at least looking at it from a religious viewpoint, it always seemed somewhat incongruous whenever a religious adherent would presume to set themselves up as "God's personal spokesperson" on Earth. How can someone claim with religious authority that math or science are the "devil's work" without also claiming to be a prophet with a personal connection and knowledge of what God is thinking?

Zonie, this is complicated. al-Ghazali was a prominent jurist and scholar in the 12th C. He is reputed to have written 400 books about different philosophies in Islam and about the nature of God. His works were widely translated into Hebrew and Latin, and studied by Thomas Aquinas among others, who wrote critiques after Ghazali's death. I am not certain what the basis is of that anti-science claim, although there are a few tentative references in this article Maybe it boiled down to this: Al-Ghazali's influence has been compared to the works of Thomas Aquinas in Christian theology, but the two differed greatly in methods and beliefs. Whereas al-Ghazali rejected non-Islamic philosophers such as Aristotle and saw fit to discard their teachings on the basis of their "unbelief," Aquinas embraced them and incorporated ancient Greek and Latin thought into his own philosophical writings.

I'll drop a note to Tyson and see if I can get a response. I'll try. I will even include the Mongol argument put forth by potty-mouth, although it is obvious when we think of achievements in classical and modern science Arab or Persian scholars do not leap to mind.

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 383

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 4:41:11 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Consider that fanaticism stifles science; not a particular religion.

People have been translating Tyson's position to mean fundamentalist, literalist, extremest and now fanatic but I don't think that's Tyson's position. For instance Tyson makes a point of mentioning Michael Faraday's Christian Fundamentalism and yet the guy was a brilliant scientist who's name everyone should recognize from one of his least important inventions the Faraday cage. And if you want to talk about fanaticism, Tyson points out that Sir Isaac Newton worked for years hold up in a room all day, every day, trying to decode secret messages from the Bible.

Yet to the extent Newton kept his god out of his physics, well I think everyone is aware of his genius.

I'm of the impression that Dr. Tyson thinks of the issue as revelation vs. investigation.

(in reply to MercTech)

Post #: 384

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 5:30:44 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I will even include the Mongol argument put forth by potty-mouth, although it is obvious when we think of achievements in classical and modern science Arab or Persian scholars do not leap to mind.

He's aware of the mongol argument, I quoted him talking about it. It's just an example, one of many Dr. Tyson has used and as long as we except the existence of the phenomenon it doesn't actually matter whether this particular example is correct. And since we do all seem to accept said phenomenon this Islamic rehashing is the thread getting lost in the weeds or to put it another way "...rant about tangents".

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 385

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 6:19:47 PM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks.

A young Canadian paratrooper was taking some
college courses between assignments.
He had completed 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan.
One of the courses had a professor who was an
avowed atheist and a member of the Canadian
Civil Liberties Association (CCLA).

One day the professor shocked the class when
he came in. He looked to the ceiling and
flatly stated, "GOD, if you are real, then I want
you to knock me off this platform...
I'll give you exactly 15 min."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin
drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when
the soldier got out of his chair, went up to the
professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him
clean off the platform. The professor was out cold.

The young soldier went back to his seat and sat there, silently.

The other students were shocked and stunned, and
sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually
came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the soldier and
asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why
did you do that?"

The young soldier stood up and calmly replied, "GOD
was too busy today protecting soldiers, who are
protecting your right to speak such stupidity and act
like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers.

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

If you feed your confidence you will starve your fear.

Good night.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 386

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 7:40:30 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

People have been translating Tyson's position to mean fundamentalist, literalist, extremest and now fanatic but I don't think that's Tyson's position.

Thank you. Exactly.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 387

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 8:31:37 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks.

A young Canadian paratrooper was taking some
college courses between assignments.
He had completed 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan.
One of the courses had a professor who was an
avowed atheist and a member of the Canadian
Civil Liberties Association (CCLA).

One day the professor shocked the class when
he came in. He looked to the ceiling and
flatly stated, "GOD, if you are real, then I want
you to knock me off this platform...
I'll give you exactly 15 min."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin
drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when
the soldier got out of his chair, went up to the
professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him
clean off the platform. The professor was out cold.

The young soldier went back to his seat and sat there, silently.

The other students were shocked and stunned, and
sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually
came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the soldier and
asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why
did you do that?"

The young soldier stood up and calmly replied, "GOD
was too busy today protecting soldiers, who are
protecting your right to speak such stupidity and act
like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers.

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

If you feed your confidence you will starve your fear.

Good night.

So a lunatic felt inclined to act out in the name of his religion. My question: so? You got people committing acts of terror in the name of their gods or under the presumption that this is what their god wanted all the time, and even acts that aren't acts of terror. It does not mean that their god told them to do it, or that their god intended for such actions to happen, or even that said god was even there to begin with. They feel convicted that their faith is the right faith and they will do anything they can to validate it, your story simply sheds light on the religious fear driven need to validate their beliefs through various illogical and unscientific means. Sad really.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 388

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 8:34:30 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

What about committing violence in the name of your god do you find appealing and what do you think that says about any god that you know?

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 389

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 8:47:48 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks.

A young Canadian paratrooper was taking some
college courses between assignments.
He had completed 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan.
One of the courses had a professor who was an
avowed atheist and a member of the Canadian
Civil Liberties Association (CCLA).

One day the professor shocked the class when
he came in. He looked to the ceiling and
flatly stated, "GOD, if you are real, then I want
you to knock me off this platform...
I'll give you exactly 15 min."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin
drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when
the soldier got out of his chair, went up to the
professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him
clean off the platform. The professor was out cold.

The young soldier went back to his seat and sat there, silently.

The other students were shocked and stunned, and
sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually
came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the soldier and
asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why
did you do that?"

The young soldier stood up and calmly replied, "GOD
was too busy today protecting soldiers, who are
protecting your right to speak such stupidity and act
like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers.

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

If you feed your confidence you will starve your fear.

Good night.

variant on an old and bad chain email
http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp about halfway down the page.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 6/8/2014 8:48:48 PM >

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 390

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 8:49:42 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

It's a dumb ass story all the way around.

What if he had said "President of this University, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform...I'll give you exactly 15 min." Even if he dialed his number.

It's contrived bullshit.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 391

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/8/2014 9:38:41 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

What about committing violence in the name of your god do you find appealing and what do you think that says about any god that you know?

There is a human capacity referred to in Psychology as "theory of mind." You should look it up and learn about it, because while it is normally apparent in early childhood you lack it entirely.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/8/2014 9:41:56 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 392

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 4:33:24 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

I am not sure what amused me more, the story or the reactions to it.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 393

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 4:58:01 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Notice how you targeted the violence of the story and not what lead to the reaction.

And Ty ken your link actually was an excellent reinforcer, although I highly doubt that was your intent. Lol.

Humans are funny creatures. Some have total faith in something greater, they just have the ability to know. Then you have some that are total absent of it. Each think the other is limited and living in a bubble.
The God view is open beyond the stars, multiuniverse actually and we are accused of ignorant and uneducated.

The most hysterical thing of all is while we are gifted with the beauty of faith and blind wisdom, you all are in white coats making bobbly gook trying to actually prove what we already have a knowing for. If you think about it dim wit you are actually trying to reach God.

Ye of little faith. Let's do everything possible with our box brains even make weird stuff and blow us out of the water to show how smart we really are!!!!

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 394

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 5:37:27 AM

Zonie63

Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks.

A young Canadian paratrooper was taking some
college courses between assignments.
He had completed 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan.
One of the courses had a professor who was an
avowed atheist and a member of the Canadian
Civil Liberties Association (CCLA).

One day the professor shocked the class when
he came in. He looked to the ceiling and
flatly stated, "GOD, if you are real, then I want
you to knock me off this platform...
I'll give you exactly 15 min."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin
drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when
the soldier got out of his chair, went up to the
professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him
clean off the platform. The professor was out cold.

The young soldier went back to his seat and sat there, silently.

The other students were shocked and stunned, and
sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually
came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the soldier and
asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why
did you do that?"

The young soldier stood up and calmly replied, "GOD
was too busy today protecting soldiers, who are
protecting your right to speak such stupidity and act
like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers.

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

If you feed your confidence you will starve your fear.

Good night.

It would seem to me that, if one follows the religion and its tenets faithfully, one would have to observe that the young soldier in this story is not only guilty of violence against another human being (when the Bible says to turn the other cheek), but also of blasphemy.

You say at the top "If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks," but the paratrooper doesn't actually know God personally, does he? Yet, he's claiming that not only does he know God, but that God personally ordered him to commit violence against another human being. So, is the admonition at the top directed at the paratrooper? He didn't know God, and he made a stupid remark (and blasphemous, too, according to the tenets of the religion). Unless the Church is willing to confirm that a new Prophet has arisen among us (which they won't do since it would probably mean a lot of revisions and redacting and new challenges to old beliefs that no church wants any part of), then every religious authority reading this story would have to conclude that the paratrooper is a lying, blasphemous apostate who worships the State ahead of God.

Is this what you meant to say?

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 6/9/2014 5:43:19 AM >

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 395

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 5:55:38 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Don't be overly concerned there is still hope for you. I said dim wit, which means there might be a glimmer of light. Dim does have a tiny bit of light, turn on a light and you will be golden and in the zonie.

What do you think the US would do to civilians operating terrorism knowingly by flying planes into foreign buildings with no active war going on? Think we would support those doers, hide them, support them?

Don't think so.
For every consequence there is a reaction. People can be extremely tolerant and turn cheeks all the time. But oh yes comes a time they are convicted to stand up.
Christians are not taught to devalue life and attack physically unless provoked to no choice. Yes God directs humans dear, it's not a new story. Get with the program.
Science can be a beautiful discovery or your worst nightmare. The day always has relieve doesn't it after waking from a nightmare doesn't it sweet pea?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks.

A young Canadian paratrooper was taking some
college courses between assignments.
He had completed 3 tours of duty in Afghanistan.
One of the courses had a professor who was an
avowed atheist and a member of the Canadian
Civil Liberties Association (CCLA).

One day the professor shocked the class when
he came in. He looked to the ceiling and
flatly stated, "GOD, if you are real, then I want
you to knock me off this platform...
I'll give you exactly 15 min."

The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin
drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor
proclaimed, "Here I am GOD, I'm still waiting."

It got down to the last couple of minutes when
the soldier got out of his chair, went up to the
professor, and cold-cocked him; knocking him
clean off the platform. The professor was out cold.

The young soldier went back to his seat and sat there, silently.

The other students were shocked and stunned, and
sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually
came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the soldier and
asked, "What in the world is the matter with you? Why
did you do that?"

The young soldier stood up and calmly replied, "GOD
was too busy today protecting soldiers, who are
protecting your right to speak such stupidity and act
like an idiot. So He sent me."

The classroom erupted in cheers.

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

If you feed your confidence you will starve your fear.

Good night.

It would seem to me that, if one follows the religion and its tenets faithfully, one would have to observe that the young soldier in this story is not only guilty of violence against another human being (when the Bible says to turn the other cheek), but also of blasphemy.

You say at the top "If you don't know GOD, don't make stupid remarks," but the paratrooper doesn't actually know God personally, does he? Yet, he's claiming that not only does he know God, but that God personally ordered him to commit violence against another human being. So, is the admonition at the top directed at the paratrooper? He didn't know God, and he made a stupid remark (and blasphemous, too, according to the tenets of the religion).

Is this what you meant to say?

(in reply to Zonie63)

Post #: 396

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 6:03:32 AM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Notice how you targeted the violence of the story and not what lead to the reaction.

Well, not everyone views assault as a sign of godliness.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 397

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 6:11:40 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

Very true. Most of the population absolutely hate war and want no part of it. They want peace but not all things unfortunately are resolved peacefully. That is a wonderful goal though.
I would support leaving the Middle East and leaving them alone to hash out their problem until they decided to do something really really stupid again and attack. Wouldn't it be grand if we didn't have that concern, by any group for that matter.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Notice how you targeted the violence of the story and not what lead to the reaction.

Well, not everyone views assault as a sign of godliness.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 398

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 6:14:11 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
Notice how you targeted the violence of the story and not what lead to the reaction.

Violent oppression of someone else's speech is typically considered a pretty big deal. You're talking about beating someone unconscious, which is potentially fatal to the victim of said felony. I would expect any moral person to be horrified by said hate crime regardless of whether it was committed against a christian, muslim, atheist or anyone else.

Ponder if this was the other way around, christians are doing things atheists find offensive all the time. For instance here's a principal that turned a graduation into a sermon offending atheists in the audience. How would you feel if one of those atheists had gone up and beaten him? And wouldn't you expect the hate crime to be the focus of the news reporting, I certainly would.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 399

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/9/2014 6:15:35 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

Since some feel comfortable insulting religion repeatedly, well I hope you enjoy a return story.

Let me see if I understand your story correctly. Some punkassmotherfucker who has sworn to uphold the right of free speech breaks his oath and claims he is god's emissary.I hope your mythical professor had this punkassmothefucker expelled and prevented from ever attending a university again. I further hope he had this punkassmotherfucker arrested and prosecuted for assault and battery. I would hope further that this punkassmotherfucker is court martialed for derilection of duty and thrown out of the service for his typically christian behaviour.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 400

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