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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

Many things, actually. Speeding enforcement is spotty at best, along with many other traffic laws. Many people drive drunk and aren't caught each time. Environmental and workplace laws often go unenforced due to insufficient staff. People steal and don't get caught. Etc etc etc

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
There is no legislation to really secure the southern border. There is a half assed plan that would put a fence along the Mexican border. That is only a very small portion of our southern border, significantly less than half actually. Even that fence would not secure the border as it would not be monitored in a way that would prevent penetration and it would cost billions to build and billions more to maintain.

Your half-assed knowledge of the plan fails to get that there are provisions included to allow DHS to use high tech means of monitoring.

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No one is saying it should be easy for those already here to get legal status but the fact is they are already here and there is no reasonable way to get rid of them so we need to regularize there status.

Throw in the towel on upholding our laws?!? I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm saying it is time to face reality. We're not going to deport 10 million people and we should not consign them to a permanent second class status.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

Many things, actually. Speeding enforcement is spotty at best, along with many other traffic laws. Many people drive drunk and aren't caught each time. Environmental and workplace laws often go unenforced due to insufficient staff. People steal and don't get caught. Etc etc etc

Do you support throwing in the towel on those things?

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

Many things, actually. Speeding enforcement is spotty at best, along with many other traffic laws. Many people drive drunk and aren't caught each time. Environmental and workplace laws often go unenforced due to insufficient staff. People steal and don't get caught. Etc etc etc

Do you support throwing in the towel on those things?

Do you want to pay for what it would take to enforce them?
Would you want to live in the society so crawling with enforcement that every infraction was caught?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
There is no legislation to really secure the southern border. There is a half assed plan that would put a fence along the Mexican border. That is only a very small portion of our southern border, significantly less than half actually. Even that fence would not secure the border as it would not be monitored in a way that would prevent penetration and it would cost billions to build and billions more to maintain.

Your half-assed knowledge of the plan fails to get that there are provisions included to allow DHS to use high tech means of monitoring.

The last plan I saw, the 2013 bill, did not include effective monitoring and response abilities for the entire border. If there is a newer bill that does secure the border for a reasonable cost then please link it.

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No one is saying it should be easy for those already here to get legal status but the fact is they are already here and there is no reasonable way to get rid of them so we need to regularize there status.

Throw in the towel on upholding our laws?!? I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

I'm saying it is time to face reality. We're not going to deport 10 million people and we should not consign them to a permanent second class status.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
There is no legislation to really secure the southern border. There is a half assed plan that would put a fence along the Mexican border. That is only a very small portion of our southern border, significantly less than half actually. Even that fence would not secure the border as it would not be monitored in a way that would prevent penetration and it would cost billions to build and billions more to maintain.

Your half-assed knowledge of the plan fails to get that there are provisions included to allow DHS to use high tech means of monitoring.

The last plan I saw, the 2013 bill, did not include effective monitoring and response abilities for the entire border. If there is a newer bill that does secure the border for a reasonable cost then please link it.

Did that bill pass? If not, then, it's not legislation.

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They consigned themselves to second class status. They chose to enter the country through illegal channels. Legal immigrants do not have second class status, do they?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then what bill are you talking about? No previous bill would have effectively closed the Mexican border much less the entire southern frontier.

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Do you really think that is a good idea? Leaving 10+ million people in the shadows permanently?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then what bill are you talking about? No previous bill would have effectively closed the Mexican border much less the entire southern frontier.

Perhaps you could start here...

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Do you really think that is a good idea? Leaving 10+ million people in the shadows permanently?

It's not permanent, Ken. They will either leave or get caught (and sent out). All our legal channels for immigration are being subverted by legalizing those who are here illegally. It's telling those who are choosing legal means that they are schmucks for following the laws of our land.

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Do you really think that is a good idea? Leaving 10+ million people in the shadows permanently?

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri I shudder to think about what else is "too difficult" for the US to do and better to give up on. [8|]

Many things, actually. Speeding enforcement is spotty at best, along with many other traffic laws. Many people drive drunk and aren't caught each time. Environmental and workplace laws often go unenforced due to insufficient staff. People steal and don't get caught. Etc etc etc

Do you support throwing in the towel on those things?

Do you want to pay for what it would take to enforce them?
Would you want to live in the society so crawling with enforcement that every infraction was caught?

Not going to answer the question?

I'm happy with current speed enforcement. There are times when I think it would be nice if there was a cop around to catch someone I think is driving too fast, but I also acknowledge that there are probably people who think I drive too fast, so that's a wash.

I do know that there are people who drive drunk and get caught multiple times. I'm all for jacking up the penalties for multiple offenses. I do find sobriety checkpoints quite annoying and think they dance on the line of the 4th Amendment.

I'm good with the amount of policing (for the most part) we have, in general (I do think speedcheck and redlight cameras are too close to 1984), but that's not the question at all. DK is, essentially, giving up on catching illegal immigrants, because it is too hard and too costly. I disagree.

Do we need to secure our borders? I say "yes, we do."
Do we need to catch illegal immigrants? I say, "yes, we do."
Do we need to deport illegal immigrants? I say, "yes, we do."
Do we need to create a totalitarian police state to do so? I say, "no, we don't."

Whatever happened to "yes, we can?"

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: DomKen
Then what bill are you talking about? No previous bill would have effectively closed the Mexican border much less the entire southern frontier.

Perhaps you could start here...

That law was a joke. It was never paid for and even if fully paid for it was never going to fence the entire border. The law called for 700 miles of fence at a cost of almost 5 billion dollars. Of course Congress never allocated all of that money and what wall was built the migrants simply learned to bypass. Note that the Mexican border is 1933 miles long so even if completed that fence was only going to cover slightly more than 1/3rd of it. I'm going to assume that they chose the easiest sections to fence so the remaining 1200 miles would likely cost a lot more than $10 billion.

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Do you really think that is a good idea? Leaving 10+ million people in the shadows permanently?

It's not permanent, Ken. They will either leave or get caught (and sent out). All our legal channels for immigration are being subverted by legalizing those who are here illegally. It's telling those who are choosing legal means that they are schmucks for following the laws of our land.

Yes, it would be permanent. There is no reasonable way we are going to catch 10 million people much less deport them. The only way to do it would be police state tactics completely unacceptable in a free society.
The fact is that we are here now and while we may not like it this is where we are and it is time to deal with that reality not wishful thinking.

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There is no reasonable way we are going to catch 10 million people much less deport them. The only way to do it would be police state tactics completely unacceptable in a free society.

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Total deportations in 2011, the latest year for which complete numbers are available, numbered 715,495 – the lowest level since 1973. The highest number of deportations on record was in 2000, under the Clinton administration, when 1,864,343 aliens were deported.

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ORIGINAL: cloudboy

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Do you really think that is a good idea? Leaving 10+ million people in the shadows permanently?

Yes, he's all in for that Tea Party platform point. Doing nothing is akin to radical, lawful, righteous action. Nevermind the slowed economic growth, big government platform, and wildly expensive enforcement costs.

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If we stop the inflow, we could, legitimately, have most of the current illegals deported within 10 years.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It costs money. Where are you going to get all this money?

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HOW are you going to catch all these infractions without creating a police state?

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And while your panties are in a wad over illegals, I'm more concerned with unenforced work safety due to a lack of staff, police cutbacks, fire cutbacks, teacher cutbacks . . .
Attitude doesn't get things done.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail
But we deported more under Obama than Clinton. Do you think we have made a dent, after spending all them billions or trillions on it?
Massively fine, and long term incarcerate illegal employers, and its over in less than an hour.

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

And, there are land structures that make it more difficult to fence and cross. AND, there were already sections fenced in, so the entire 1900+miles of border didn't need yet another fence.

But, there is a provision in there allowing DHS to use available tech to monitor. That fence would have been a great start (1/3+ of the border), had W (and Obama) followed through.

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For God's sake! Close the fucking border. Ramp up fines on employers. Deport those we catch. If we stop the inflow, we could, legitimately, have most of the current illegals deported within 10 years. In case your calculator isn't nearby, that's quite a bit less time than "permanent."