RE: Eric Cantor defeated!

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Musicmystery -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 12:23:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Ah....no. Your dispute with cloud has nothing to do with what I said, leading you to ask for a citation completely off from my point. Sorry you and the cloud are having troubles. Maybe couple's counseling? The poor widdle mooseman can't back up his assertions? Poor pathetic twerp can't fucking read? I asserted "this is a much larger and more complex thing that the conservative 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' hysteria suggests." YOU are arguing over "cloudboy's assertion that granting amnesty for those who are illegally here will be a boon for the economy and housing markets." 1) Can you see, you childish buffoon, that these statements are NOT in support of one another? That's really the main point here. ^ But 2) in either case, it's a speculation, so unless there's some parallel time/space/dimension Internet somehow, a "citation" isn't what you need. What you're seeking is the reasoning behind that speculation YOU'RE whining about, whether it helps the economy or no. I'M stating that it's a conservative belief: 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' And if you need a citation for THAT, read a newspaper. Watch FOX. Really, go anywhere conservatives gather. If you need a citation for my claim that you're a poor pathetic twerp can't fucking read, see here. By the way . . . you also can't tell a moose from a caribou, Einstein.

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 3:07:38 PM)
What you see with DS and others here is the divide between traditional, pragmatic, business oriented Republicans (Eric Canto Backers) and the populist, angry, and not particularly well-informed tea party. (Nutsackers as MNOT refers to them.) DS rejects the CATO Institute. Therein is the great fact i-- the mini representation of the civil war within the Republican Party itself --- and the lack of any leadership to: (1) form a consensus for action; (2) to raise the consciousness of voters above their petty anger and resentments. Cantor wanted the Republican party to lead and do something -- and for his sins was voted out of office. I'm not a free market magical thinker -- the CATO INSTITUTE -- though, usually has very good, well researched ideas about how to spur economic growth. In fact, Conservative economics works pretty well when it actively figures in external costs -- and realizes that lowering tax rates from current thresholds will have minimal impact. Anyway, the TEA PARTY is all about principle over pragmatism and problem solving. Immigration is the best illustrations of this dogma. It's just something else to see people so politically active being so averse to forward, sensible thinking.

thompsonx -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 6:07:55 PM)
The poor widdle mooseman can't back up his assertions? You have been asked to back up your assertions on numerous occasions. What I support: A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution Yet when asked what you mean by a conservative interpretation of the constitution you act like a punkassmotherfucker and refuse to say. Personal Responsibility Yet you support corporations which shield punkassmotherfuckers from personal responsibility. Help for the truly needy Besides you how many punkassmotherfuckers can't define who the truly needy are. Limited Government Yet when asked what you want to limit in the government you refuse to answer Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt) When asked to justify a regressive tax you refuse to discuss it. Until you start substantiating your own bullshit where the fuck do you get of chiding someone else?

TheHeretic -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 6:28:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I'M stating that it's a conservative belief: 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' And if you need a citation for THAT, read a newspaper. Watch FOX. Really, go anywhere conservatives gather. Quit pulling stuff out of your ass, and throwing it up on the screen, Muse. You decry partisanship when it suits you, and then fully embrace and embellish upon it when that works better. What about the old talking point that Republicans like illegals because they get a workforce that is easier to exploit? There may be conservatives who have expressed the idea you cite, but that doesn't make it a widespread belief. BTW, the last thing I watched on FOX was that wasted opportunity called Cosmos. How conservative was that?

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 7:23:07 PM)
The Tea Party is the problem, not the Republican Party. Business and evangelicals want reform now -- as does Karl Rove, GWB, Jeb Bush, etc.

Musicmystery -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/16/2014 8:36:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I'M stating that it's a conservative belief: 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' And if you need a citation for THAT, read a newspaper. Watch FOX. Really, go anywhere conservatives gather. Quit pulling stuff out of your ass, and throwing it up on the screen, Muse. You decry partisanship when it suits you, and then fully embrace and embellish upon it when that works better. What about the old talking point that Republicans like illegals because they get a workforce that is easier to exploit? There may be conservatives who have expressed the idea you cite, but that doesn't make it a widespread belief. BTW, the last thing I watched on FOX was that wasted opportunity called Cosmos. How conservative was that? Quit assuming conservative = Republican and Democrat = liberal. There are very conservative Democrats, and the Tea/RINO conflict is also about who's "conservative enough." This isn't 1970 anymore, Rich. The Republican Party that was then is a distant memory. Back then, Barry Goldwater was extreme. Now, he couldn't pass the entrance exam.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:43:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Ah....no. Your dispute with cloud has nothing to do with what I said, leading you to ask for a citation completely off from my point. Sorry you and the cloud are having troubles. Maybe couple's counseling? The poor widdle mooseman can't back up his assertions? Poor pathetic twerp can't fucking read? I asserted "this is a much larger and more complex thing that the conservative 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' hysteria suggests." YOU are arguing over "cloudboy's assertion that granting amnesty for those who are illegally here will be a boon for the economy and housing markets." 1) Can you see, you childish buffoon, that these statements are NOT in support of one another? That's really the main point here. ^ But 2) in either case, it's a speculation, so unless there's some parallel time/space/dimension Internet somehow, a "citation" isn't what you need. What you're seeking is the reasoning behind that speculation YOU'RE whining about, whether it helps the economy or no. I'M stating that it's a conservative belief: 'just get rid of the illegals and our economy will flourish' And if you need a citation for THAT, read a newspaper. Watch FOX. Really, go anywhere conservatives gather. If you need a citation for my claim that you're a poor pathetic twerp can't fucking read, see here. By the way . . . you also can't tell a moose from a caribou, Einstein. Poor mooseman can't even get the right picture. [8D] I'm asking you to cite your assertion that it's a conservative belief. You'd rather not. I was disagreeing with cloudboy's assertion, and you come rambling in with an assertion that didn't apply?!? And now, it's my fault we aren't agreeing?!? In case you decide to do the google thing, the plural of moose isn't meese.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:45:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy DS rejects the CATO Institute. Therein is the great fact i-- the mini representation of the civil war within the Republican Party itself --- and the lack of any leadership to: (1) form a consensus for action; (2) to raise the consciousness of voters above their petty anger and resentments. ... I'm not a free market magical thinker -- the CATO INSTITUTE -- though, usually has very good, well researched ideas about how to spur economic growth. In fact, Conservative economics works pretty well when it actively figures in external costs -- and realizes that lowering tax rates from current thresholds will have minimal impact. Did you link to the Cato Institute's ideas about illegal immigration? If so, I do apologize for missing it. Either way, mind citing it again (or for the first time, whichever is accurate)?

Musicmystery -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:46:13 AM)
I'm going to pass on the childishness.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:51:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery I'm going to pass on the childishness. I guess there really is a first for everything...

TheHeretic -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:55:58 AM)
Ever notice how it only becomes "childishness" when he's losing the argument?

Musicmystery -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 8:16:09 AM)
Nice try, Rich, but proclamation doesn't equal sound argument. What happened here is drawing out from you that indeed, the issue is more complex than political posturing indicates. If you disagree with yourself, perhaps consider counseling.

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 10:28:05 AM)
I read this and thought straight of you: "Republicans and conservatives tend toward a kind of certitude that they, far more than Democrats and liberals, embody and represent real American values. So they spent October 2012 persuading themselves that there was simply no chance that Americans would reelect this professional leftist who (it was so obvious to them) was, by both incompetence and intention, bringing the country to ruin. Pundits of the right attempted to conjure this specter into reality by the act of repeatedly saying it," Michael Tomansky, NYRoB

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 10:33:30 AM)
The overriding impact of immigrants is to strengthen and enrich American culture, increase the total output of the economy, and raise the standard of living of American citizens. Immigrants are advantageous to the United States for several reasons: (1) Since they are willing to take a chance in a new land, they are self-selected on the basis on motivation, risk taking, work ethic, and other attributes beneficial to a nation. (2) They tend to come to the United States during their prime working years (the average age is 28), and they contribute to the workforce and make huge net contributions to old-age entitlement programs, primarily Social Security. (3) Immigrants tend to fill niches in the labor market where demand is highest relative to supply, complementing rather than directly competing with American workers. (4) Many immigrants arrive with extremely high skill levels, and virtually all, regardless of skill level, bring a strong desire to work. (5) Their children tend to reach high levels of achievement in American schools and in society at large. http://www.cato.org/research/immigration http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/Griswold_Introduction.pdf

thompsonx -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 1:39:18 PM)
ORIGINAL: MrMarkSilver I'd have to believe there was more to Cantor's defeat than just immigration. There is truly no amnesty on the table at this time, unless all the people in his district are not bright enough to figure that out? Cantor must not have pandered enough to the Tea Yahoos, otherwise taking out the majority whip really doesn't make much sense based on what he could bring home in the way of pork and constituent services. Hell, what any nimrod in Congress can bring to a district is enough to keep a seat for what seems like forever. Lord knows there are plenty of total human voids in Congress! How long do you think cantor will be out of office?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 3:36:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The overriding impact of immigrants is to strengthen and enrich American culture, increase the total output of the economy, and raise the standard of living of American citizens. Immigrants are advantageous to the United States for several reasons: (1) Since they are willing to take a chance in a new land, they are self-selected on the basis on motivation, risk taking, work ethic, and other attributes beneficial to a nation. (2) They tend to come to the United States during their prime working years (the average age is 28), and they contribute to the workforce and make huge net contributions to old-age entitlement programs, primarily Social Security. (3) Immigrants tend to fill niches in the labor market where demand is highest relative to supply, complementing rather than directly competing with American workers. (4) Many immigrants arrive with extremely high skill levels, and virtually all, regardless of skill level, bring a strong desire to work. (5) Their children tend to reach high levels of achievement in American schools and in society at large. http://www.cato.org/research/immigration http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/Griswold_Introduction.pdf Neat. Where does it say anything about amnesty for illegal immigrants helping the economy? That's where conservatives disagree with liberals regarding immigration reform. Everything I've stated support for aligns with what you've quoted. It's too bad you can't see past your own incorrect view of conservatives to see how much conservatives and liberals agree on.

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 5:57:20 PM)
You just have a narrow -- stuck-in-one-place -- view on immigration -- namely not expanding immigration to include people with already in the USA with substantial ties, good moral character, and a lot to contribute. You're stuck on the word Amnesty for reason I simply don't understand --- better to be stuck on "how do I solve this problem."

Sanity -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 6:01:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy You just have a narrow -- stuck-in-one-place -- view on immigration -- namely not expanding immigration to include people with already in the USA with substantial ties, good moral character, and a lot to contribute. You're stuck on the word Amnesty for reason I simply don't understand --- better to be stuck on "how do I solve this problem." Considering how they are coming over the border in wave after wave after wave, literally flooding in, doesn't your idea of "amnesty" simply mean that amnesty goes on and on and on... As in, we have no border, no culture, no laws, and no order?

Zonie63 -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/17/2014 7:38:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The overriding impact of immigrants is to strengthen and enrich American culture, increase the total output of the economy, and raise the standard of living of American citizens. Immigrants are advantageous to the United States for several reasons: (1) Since they are willing to take a chance in a new land, they are self-selected on the basis on motivation, risk taking, work ethic, and other attributes beneficial to a nation. (2) They tend to come to the United States during their prime working years (the average age is 28), and they contribute to the workforce and make huge net contributions to old-age entitlement programs, primarily Social Security. (3) Immigrants tend to fill niches in the labor market where demand is highest relative to supply, complementing rather than directly competing with American workers. (4) Many immigrants arrive with extremely high skill levels, and virtually all, regardless of skill level, bring a strong desire to work. (5) Their children tend to reach high levels of achievement in American schools and in society at large. http://www.cato.org/research/immigration http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/Griswold_Introduction.pdf Neat. Where does it say anything about amnesty for illegal immigrants helping the economy? That's where conservatives disagree with liberals regarding immigration reform. Everything I've stated support for aligns with what you've quoted. It's too bad you can't see past your own incorrect view of conservatives to see how much conservatives and liberals agree on. I don't really see conservatives as being a single-minded group on this issue, and even liberals might also find room for disagreement. The article does address the question of amnesty in part VIII, starting on page 15 of the PDF article.

cloudboy -> RE: Eric Cantor defeated! (6/18/2014 6:21:58 AM)
VIII. A PATH TO LEGALITY FOR WORKERS ALREADY HERE Finally, any comprehensive immigration reform worth its name must offer a path to legal status for the millions of workers already here without authorization. It would be an economic and humanitarian disaster, as well as an administrative nightmare, to round up the 12,000,000 people already here illegally and somehow deport them back to their home countries. Any realistic immigration reform must recognize that many undocumented workers have become valued employees. Most have been in the country for five years or more, and 34% have been here for more than a decade. Their contributions to the US Economy shoudl be recognized and weighed against their violations of US immigration laws. Long-standing critics of comprehensive immigration reform will brand any legalization as an “amnesty.” But amnesty means a general pardon, in particular for political offenses. Legalization would not be a pardon or amnesty because, according to the most serious proposals put forward in Congress, undocumented workers would be expected to pay fines and back taxes. They would undergo security checks and could even be required to leave the country before being allowed to enter legally. They would not be granted automatic permanent legal status but only temporary status to remain and work in the United States for a specified period of time. Americans expect the law to be respected and obeyed, and those who violate the United States’ laws to face the appropriate consequences. But at the same time, laws must be reasonable and not fundamentally out of step with how millions of otherwise peaceful and hardworking people arrange their lives." P. 15. As noted. http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/articles/Griswold_Introduction.pdf

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