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The root of dominance and submission - 6/15/2014 8:55:29 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
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From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		For years now I have read many threads where people complain that a dominant or a submissive behaves incorrectly, and that they are not what they say they are... as if it is a deceit.

I think this view sometimes ignores some basic truths about where dominant or submissive ideation comes from.

For some, the identity of being dominant or submissive is inherent in their personality. They are dominant or submissive in their daily lives and in their interactions with everyone, and this is something they bring in to their BDSM activity. I get the impression that this is what people are referring to when they refer to a "true" dominant or submissive. I wonder how common this actually is though... and how appealing it would be? It seems to me that someone who was inherently and completely dominant wouldn't take much interest in pleasing a sub, and someone who was inherently and completely submissive would not require much domination, and would be boring.

For others, being dominant or submissive is the exact opposite of their inherent nature. The excitement lies in giving themselves over to a behavior that is somewhat alien to them. To submit or to dominate in a safe context, when it is not your daily experience, can be scary, thrilling, and fulfilling.

Modern life requires a certain amount of responsibility, confidence and even dominance to survive... and I think this explains why there seems to be so many more subs than Doms.

Most people, of course, lie somewhere along a spectrum between those two poles. It's the complex and sometimes tricky balance between those two extremes that make things workable in BDSM, it seems to me.

While there will always be deceitful people in every context of life... the point of this post is: Given the challenging introspection and real world experimentation required to discover where on the spectrum things work for us, should we not consider first that people who do not exactly appear to be what they say they are are searching for their place, and not lying?

Re reading this, I realize it is a long winded way of asking "Why do we seem to jump towards judgement?"

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 6/15/2014 8:59:57 AM >

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/15/2014 9:16:16 AM   
Miyani


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Status: offline 		The view you're addressing ignores the basic truth that there is no one way that dominants and submissives are "supposed" to act. What appears dominant to one will not to another, and any act can be seen as a dominant or submissive act in the right context. Yes, I know, broad generalizations.

People who say they are something and are COMPLETELY certain of and secure in their place will be accused of not following the One True Way (tm) as often as those still searching. Perhaps more, because they depend less on the "shoulds" of others. So while nothing you said is, in my opinion, false (except for the idea that someone who is inherently dominant wouldn't take interest in pleasing a sub - we're still capable of being invested in the happiness of those we care about. Or that inherent and complete submissives would be "boring." Mine's not, thanks.), I think they're different topics of conversation.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/15/2014 9:43:38 AM   
FieryOpal


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		~ FR ~ What you seem to be describing in terms of the interplay with Dominance and submission is what I call "vanilla S/switching," in terms of modalities. But not of inherent Dominance or submission, which is more than a personality attribute -- It is an essence. Insofar as non-vanilla D/s dynamics go, there are consensual power-authority exchanges taking place which do NOT operate with such an intensive degree of consensuality in the *real* world. There we are often forced to defer to others, either overtly or by systemic default, or take on unwanted positions of authority.

(I'll like to return to this thread at a later date; for now, it comes too close on the heels of another thread that I got fed up with.)

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/15/2014 2:48:04 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm naturally submissive to him. Something about the energy between us.
He doesn't find it boring that we've only had about 5 fights in 11 years.

He enjoys pleasing me because he's a good man and wants his partner to be happy to be with him. Being dominant doesn't mean he's automatically a sociopath.

And yes, if nobody else is in charge, or they're not doing things up to his standards, he tends to take over. He stubbornly refuses to entertain the idea of failure and has shown this to our joint brood so that they're all confident about things. I tend to describe him as a steam roller.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/15/2014 5:16:13 PM   
RockaRolla


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Status: offline 		There are people who simply respond to sexual frustration with anger. Their partner doesn't get them off the way they want, and so they react with outrage. "But you were SUPPOSED to-!"

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 1:55:27 AM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
<snip>
It seems to me that someone who was inherently and completely dominant wouldn't take much interest in pleasing a sub, and someone who was inherently and completely submissive would not require much domination, and would be boring.

Where would you get the impression that Dominants don't want to please their subs, that this wouldn't be part of dominant behavior? This would presuppose that all Dominants are inherently selfish. Some are. Some aren't. And some fall in the middle, the same as any other human being on the face of the earth.

Furthermore, what makes you think that a natural-born submissive does not require much domination? A natural-born submissive craves it. A natural-born submissive is anything but boring. I haven't known many, but I have been blessed to have known a few.

quote:

the point of this post is: Given the challenging introspection and real world experimentation required to discover where on the spectrum things work for us, should we not consider first that people who do not exactly appear to be what they say they are are searching for their place, and not lying?

Re reading this, I realize it is a long winded way of asking "Why do we seem to jump towards judgement?"

What sort of judgment are people jumping to? That Dominants must prove their dominance to others or just to submissives? That submissives must prove submissiveness to others or just to Dominants?

The only people who matter are the principles to their D/s relationship dynamic and what constitutes authenticity to each another.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 5:54:11 AM   
InHisHeart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

It seems to me that someone who was inherently and completely dominant wouldn't take much interest in pleasing a sub, and someone who was inherently and completely submissive would not require much domination, and would be boring.


I don't understand where you would get those ideas, can you elaborate?

Master is inherently dominant and takes a lot of interest in pleasing me. I'm inherently submissive but not boring at all and as FieryOpal said, dominance is something I crave.

Being naturally submissive doesn't mean I can't be a take charge person in other areas of my life and in some situations. I don't see that as being dominant or having a dominant personality though, I see it as doing what I need to do.


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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 9:08:11 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyani

So while nothing you said is, in my opinion, false (except for the idea that someone who is inherently dominant wouldn't take interest in pleasing a sub - we're still capable of being invested in the happiness of those we care about. Or that inherent and complete submissives would be "boring." Mine's not, thanks.), I think they're different topics of conversation.


My intention there was to refer to extremes of character at either end of a spectrum, with balance being the objective... for example, a submissive who is completely acquiescent and without will would be at one end of the spectrum. Similarly, there are many pathologically Dominant personalities in the world who are self serving and would not be good BDSM Dominants.

The dominants and submissives at this end of the spectrum are fairly unrealistic characters (at least within BDSM) and not intended as my opinion of the meaning of these terms.

With regard to my question...

I was referring to the "You're not a real Master" and "You're not a real sub" kind of conversations that I have seen here over the years... but perhaps I have been seeing something no one else has.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 6/16/2014 9:17:57 AM >

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 9:20:01 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miyani

The view you're addressing ignores the basic truth that there is no one way that dominants and submissives are "supposed" to act. What appears dominant to one will not to another, and any act can be seen as a dominant or submissive act in the right context. Yes, I know, broad generalizations.



I agree. That is actually my point... thus I don't understand why people jump to judge others as "not a real master" or "not a real sub".

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 12:37:44 PM   
FieryOpal


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I agree. That is actually my point... thus I don't understand why people jump to judge others as "not a real master" or "not a real sub".

Any time someone doesn't fit into someone else's mold or doesn't do what they want, you will get the "not a real [insert here]," whether unsubstantiated or not. How many times have men heard, "You're not a real man" or a woman accused of acting less than feminine being called "butch" or a "dyke." Then there's the marital dispersion cast of "You're such a lousy husband/wife."

In your own case, OP, could your being a Switch be factoring into the equation? I hear they get told they're "not dominant" or "not submissive" enough to be considered suitable as a steady partner. This may be coloring your perceptions somewhat.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 1:48:30 PM   
FightingChains


Posts: 293
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Status: offline 		Some people are just by nature dominant or submissive, and they bring this into their BDSM.
Some people like to be dominant or submissive in certain contexts, like BDSM or sex, and it may not be indicative of their everyday nature.

There are plenty of people who are in the first group who will call the others fakers. Ignore them. Just be yourself. The whole 'real' crowd just make me barf.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/16/2014 5:16:05 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


My intention there was to refer to extremes of character at either end of a spectrum, with balance being the objective... for example, a submissive who is completely acquiescent and without will would be at one end of the spectrum. Similarly, there are many pathologically Dominant personalities in the world who are self serving and would not be good BDSM Dominants.



Okay, so now I get it. You have the mistaken assumption that being submissive means you are automatically passive, without any desires of your own and without healthy boundaries.

That's not true.

I don't ever want to be the person with the ultimate responsibility. That's what makes me submissive. I don't want to be the leader.

However, I have likes and dislikes, I have must haves and deal breakers. And I've done enough therapy to have healthy boundaries. As a result I found the one person with all the qualities I need to be in a relationship with.

I may not always be thrilled by his decisions. The no brussel sprout rule comes first to mind. But none of them are things I can't tolerate. That's compatibility.


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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/17/2014 9:15:02 AM   
Bhruic


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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I agree. That is actually my point... thus I don't understand why people jump to judge others as "not a real master" or "not a real sub".


In your own case, OP, could your being a Switch be factoring into the equation? I hear they get told they're "not dominant" or "not submissive" enough to be considered suitable as a steady partner. This may be coloring your perceptions somewhat.


I am not speaking for myself. I am in a happy, long term D/s relationship, and have never encountered the phenomena I am describing directed at myself (except once on the Gorean boards, but the Gorean boards are argumentative about everything haha)

I was just commenting on behavior I have seen here amongst others quite often... Someone will ask a question, and their question will be almost immediately ignored, and the OP's label, or motives will become the focus of comment. I just find it curious behavior.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/17/2014 9:21:43 AM   
Bhruic


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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic


My intention there was to refer to extremes of character at either end of a spectrum, with balance being the objective... for example, a submissive who is completely acquiescent and without will would be at one end of the spectrum. Similarly, there are many pathologically Dominant personalities in the world who are self serving and would not be good BDSM Dominants.



Okay, so now I get it. You have the mistaken assumption that being submissive means you are automatically passive, without any desires of your own and without healthy boundaries.

That's not true.



With all due respect, you don't get what I am saying. I was defining a spectrum of extremes... think of Good and evil, where absolute good is at one end, and absolute evil at the other... no one inhabits either of those extremes, but they define the scale. For the total submissive, I could have used the example of someone in a coma... they are totally submissive, and not very interesting.

It was not my intention that people get hung up on the extremes of the scale, as if I was describing real personality types as I understood them. The whole point of illustrating a scale was to indicate that everyone is located somewhere along it's continuum.


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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/17/2014 11:29:47 AM   
orgasmdenial12


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Status: offline 		Submission, for me, is just something I find very exciting, sexually. It's not an inherent part of my nature, although I do sometimes surprise myself (and everyone else) by making them a cup of tea.

Yet I am frequently told what a 'natural' and 'true' submissive I am, simply because I match a model of submissiveness that some random stranger has in their head. I accept the right kinks, I have the right attitude or I make the right noises when being beaten.

Of course, I find this hilarious. My submission is about as natural as my hairless hoo-ha. Therefore, I have great patience with anyone who thinks or says that they want to be a sub or Dom, whilst seeming about as natural as a rollerskating giraffe. BDSM, like dating in our teens, takes a while to get the hang of - natural or not.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/18/2014 10:30:00 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

Given the challenging introspection and real world experimentation required to discover where on the spectrum things work for us, should we not consider first that people who do not exactly appear to be what they say they are are searching for their place, and not lying?


Everything in the BDSM world is relative. We don't certify as we do professional trades. So, an experienced Dom might doubt a young man just learning as might a submissive or she might not, since to her he is a God.

So, in short I would answer yes.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/18/2014 4:18:40 PM   
Domnotlooking


Posts: 249
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Status: offline 		I'm over 50.

In my dating cohort, if they are still unclear as to their "place" on the D/s continuum, that is a red flag of an unformed person, or at least that that person is less soul-searching and sex-oriented than I will want in a partner.

Likewise, if they want to hash out whether or not they can still be spanked and adhere to broad feminist/humanist principles, I'm going to urge them to sort that out on their own time without any undue influence from this particular Dark Lord.

What I like about this stuff is that people finally -finally- at some point blurt out what they want.

But your own very circular, endlessly parsing, and excruciatingly introspective style drove me screaming away from the Gor board, so I may not be talking about what you want here.

Pointing out that everyone is strung along some kind of a continuum, has me leaning forward and asking "and?".

No one's getting your drift here -maybe just cut to the chase?

< Message edited by Domnotlooking -- 6/18/2014 4:21:39 PM >

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/19/2014 7:04:01 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

Pointing out that everyone is strung along some kind of a continuum, has me leaning forward and asking "and?".

No one's getting your drift here -maybe just cut to the chase?


I cut to the chase in the OP. Given that what is Dominance and what is submission is not an absolute, and is entirely the subjective opinion of those involved in a particular situation, what is the motive that has people judging other people's calibre of dominance or submission?

Is it that some people are so insecure that they have to fortify their identity by judging others as lacking?

Is it to gain some kind of cachet within the community?

This is what I am curious about... and am interested in people's opinions.

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/19/2014 7:09:20 AM   
Bhruic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domnotlooking

But your own very circular, endlessly parsing, and excruciatingly introspective style drove me screaming away from the Gor board, so I may not be talking about what you want here.



As an aside... If that *was* my style, it would be right at home on the Gor board :)

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RE: The root of dominance and submission - 6/19/2014 9:00:54 AM   
Domnotlooking


Posts: 249
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Status: offline 		People's main motivation in judging others is their dissatisfaction with what they currently have. Well fucked people with their kink itch sweetly scratched tend towards equanimity in the extreme.

On a board that's just an afterthought/appendix to a dating site, dissatisfaction will be rife. Kinky relationship building via the internet is a frustrating goose chase.

Also, long dreamed of sex that still isn't happening is the definition of a hot button for most people. Lots of egos get bruised in the long slog to a hot leather fuck. And we're in a thing where the less ego you have on either side of the kneel, the hotter the sex will be. So searchers are trying to protect and slough off their egos at the same time. That will def. make people act out.

Since probably not even 5% of kinky people have anything at all to do with "the community", and since the community generally consists of a few very flawed people, and since those community people tend towards being coupled up already, I can't see how the barely existent community holds any sway among the people who are currently giving you shit.

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